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Auto Gear Changing - All Electronic? 

 

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 Post subject: Auto Gear Changing - All Electronic?
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:59 pm 
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Just wondering if the auto shift is just electronic switches, or if it contains anything mechanical?

For eg.
If I apply 1.3V-1.7V to the "Transmission Position" pin of the ECU, will the car (EL) change to 2nd gear the same as moving the shift would? or does the shift do more than just change the voltage?
Thanks in advance.
--- Brady

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:06 pm 
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the electronic versions (the common version) change the voltage to the (s5 i think??) solenoid which causes an increase in the line pressure making firmer shifts. There is a more expensive option (mechanical type) where the solenoid in question is physically changed, however, the electronic version seems to be a popular choice here. Try shiftkits.com.au or you can even make your own.



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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:15 pm 
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Thanks for your fast reply.
But I'm not talking about shift kits, I'm talking about changing gears like you would in an auto, push it down to 1st or 2nd etc...
But, for eg.... if i disconnect pin 30 on an EL EEC-V (Transmission Position)
[p]3.8V-4.2V, [R]3.3V-3.7V, [N]2.8V-3.2V, [D]2.3V-2.7V, [3]1.8V-2.2V, [2]1.3V-1.7V, [1]0.8V-1.2V
And just put one of those voltages on pin 30, will the car be in that gear, the same as it would be if i moved the shift? or do auto shifts do more than just that?

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:23 pm 
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Nope, doesnt work that way.

The gear (and shifts) are controlled by 6 solenoids in the gearbox which apply hydraulic pressure. Basically to set the gear you need to switch the solenoids in the right sequence while ramping the line pressure using the S5.

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:57 pm 
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Yep, I know solenoids change the gears, but that is all controlled by the ECU, correct?
And the ECU is told what to do by different voltages sent to it from the user shift...
Does the user shift do anything apart from switch between these voltages?
Does it phisicly move anything?

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:01 pm 
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Yes it does. The shifter controls a linkage in the valve body. The gearbox then tells the ECU what 'mode' it is in, and the ecu then controls the solenoids to select the gears.

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:07 pm 
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Hmmm, OK, But what do you mean by "mode"?

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:17 pm 
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mode = what the selector is pointing at

i.e.-
You put the selector in D
Gearbox tells ECU its in D
ECU looks at speed/rpm/tps/etc, decides what gear it should be in and does the sequence for that gear.

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:21 pm 
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Ahhh OK, so just the voltages I was talking about... rightio....

So, say 1st is selected with the shift, but I have the correct voltage on the ECU for it to be in 3rd, what will happen?

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:29 pm 
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Manually selecting 1,2 or 3 is different again. To be honest Id have no idea what would happen, but i suspect you would want to be close to home when you tried it.

I get the feeling your thinking about some sort of tiptronic setup?

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:35 pm 
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stockstandard wrote:
but i suspect you would want to be close to home when you tried it.

HAHA

stockstandard wrote:
I get the feeling your thinking about some sort of tiptronic setup?

Good guess, sound realistic to you?

It's starting to get a bit involved, before I go too far, I would like to know exactly what the shift does so I dont waste my time.

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:49 pm 
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In short, there is no easy way to do it, but there are (or at least were) kits out there to fit functional BA shifters into e-series.

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:04 pm 
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Yeah, I'm not planning to use a BA shifter, and I'm not expecting it to be simple, but both myself and my brother are electronic technicians and are working on it...

What can I say? I think we know a little bit more about electronics then we do mechanical lol, which is why I'm here... :lol:

If we had a wrecked shift/gearbox it would be good, we could figure out exactly how it worked, but we don't so I was hoping someone here would know if all it does is change the voltage/mode on pin 30 (EL EEC-V), and the ECU does the rest, or if moving the shifter actualy does something else...

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:12 pm 
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In that case, what you basically want to do is make your own TCU to control the solenoids directly and disconnect the trans from the ECU. Tiptronic is only really feasible when the selector is in drive, then have your TCU select the gear from paddles/switches or whatever your selector mechanism is going to be.

The electronics are pretty simple (I have designed a board to do it but lost interest in making it), but the programming/tuning required will be a bit of a pain. In another thread I wrote a little on how the solenoids are used -

stockstandard wrote:
Ive just gone through the 135 page manual for these gearboxes because to be honest its probably the part of a car I know the least about. To summarize what was in there -

As previously posted, S1 and S2 control the gear selection. I was happy to read that the position of these in each gear was the same as what I had worked out, being:

1st gear: Both S1 and S2 on
2nd gear: S2 on
3rd gear: both off
4th gear: S1 on

S3 controls the application of the clutch C1, and S4 controls the front band. Both of these need to be applied in a controlled way for smooth shifting, which is done by S5 controlling the pressure delivered to them while their solenoids are open. The more current delivered to S5, the lower the line pressure. Im a little confused as to how these are used at the moment. In the manual it says the front band needs to be applied while in 2nd and 4th gears, and the C1 clutch applied in 3rd and 4th. But the table above indicates that S3 solenoid (controls C1) is on while shifting into 3rd and the S4 (controlling the forward band) is on during all shifts. Logging what the factory TCU does will tell us how to control it, but I suspect that the solenoids are used for the application of the clutch/band, which then may or may not be held in place by hydraulic pressure depending on the gear.

The remaining clutches C2, C3 and C4 and the rear band (none of which we need to control) receive line pressure regulated by the primary regulator valve. Under light throttle, the line pressure is reduced by switching on S6. Under heavy throttle, S6 is switched off, increasing the line pressure so the gearbox handles the extra torque

Finally, S7 locks the torque converter. On pre-ef 4 speeds, the lockup occurs when in 4th under "suitable driving conditions", which I read as cruise or light throttle. On EF's and onwards and when the gearbox is in economy, lockup occurs late in the 3rd gear and partially disengages for the 3rd to 4th shift. In all gearboxes, the S5 solenoid is again used to provide smooth engagement.

Oh, and reverse requires both S1 and S2 to be on. C3 is locked by hydraulic pressure to reverse the rotation of the output shaft.

I believe the ECU also expects a signal from the TCU. Looks like this signal is 12V to send ECU into LHM, 0V to report a thermistor error, or a 10,20,30 or 40Hz wave indicating the temperature of the gearbox which is used to adjust idle speed.

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:26 pm 
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Thats some pretty good info, thanks...
Either that, which would be cool... or very basic: just simulating where the shift is, which i know wont force it into gear, but its what I'm looking at doing...
So, if pin 30 of the ECU isn't connected to the shift (it will be through another circuit but just an eg...) and say, pin 30 is connected to a switch between 4v (park) and 2.5v (drive)... would this change between park and drive no matter where the shift is possitioned? (i know its a stupid eg. but you get the idea)...

 

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