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 Post subject: Coils ain't coils
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:58 pm 
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heh :)

We've been talking about coil packs and dizzy set ups over in the megasquirt thread, and for those of us looking to control spark as well it looks as though it might be simpler to switch to a dizzy and coil set up rather than try and adapt the existing coil packs.

So, what are the benefits of each system ?
As far as I'm aware, the EF's came out with coil packs then they went back to dizzys for the ELs and then the AU (and BA?) went back to coil packs again. Are they superior to the older dizzy and coil setup ?
Any performance benefit ?
Having always had coil packs in my last 2 cars not being able to manually adjust the timing is the first downfall of coil packs that comes to mind. Otherwise the seem fairly reliable and maintenance free

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:53 am 
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To add to that a TFI dizzy is also virtually maintenance free, I know i have never touched mine.

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:41 am 
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Dizzy's need changing of caps and rotors, and thats it. Cheap parts, done with every second service or whatever.

As for why they switched, Ive heard all sorts of stories, the two main ones was that coil packs were failing, and ford reverted back, but most people say its due to the cost cutting.

Dizzy's are good in my opinion as they give you more control (over coils), they are easier to set up with an aftermarket EMS (as what you are talking about in the MSII thread, and are cheap as they were exactly the same from who knows when.

I like my dizzy, its good, and the conversion from coil would not be all that hard, you are replacing the ECU, that problem gone, the sensor magiggy comes out, the coils come out, and the dizzy goes in. Dunno if the leads were the same, bu im sure the leads would reach. Dizzy's are more widespread aftermarket wise also AFAIK.


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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:16 pm 
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The coil pack would probabily give you more accurate and consistant spark timing, but how much I couldn't say. Your probabily not going to get it spot on (+- 1degree) with aftermarket tuning anyway.

If I was going to do it I would say go with coil packs since it means you can get rid of the Totally totally crap dizzy mounting location. Under the inlet manifold wtf! -made a 5 min lead changing job into a whole day!
Does anyone know why ford did that rather than driving off the camshaft like just about every other modern car.

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:19 pm 
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Advantage of TFI with the stock computer is the ability to play with base timing and therefore affect timing across all load points. Obviously not really a bonus if you have discrete control via aftermarket ECU...

Was there not also issues with voltage flyback to EEC as a result of EDIS being built in?

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:24 pm 
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duz someone want to explain wat the difference is to those who dont have a clue wat ure talkin about

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:35 pm 
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mitch_anderson wrote:
duz someone want to explain wat the difference is to those who dont have a clue wat ure talkin about


You got an EF right? See the black box all the ignition leads come out of? That's a coil pack. Computer basically controls each coil pack and tells it when to fire a cylinder's spark...

EA-EB and EL have TFI (thick film ignition but the name's not really important) distributors and coils... kinda like old cars in that there is a rotor spinning around and it closes a gap as it passes each point... a little more to it with EFI tho as the distributor acts as crank angle sensor and TFI also allows EEC to modify the timing advance 'on the fly'....

So... the coilpack is the 'equivalent' of coil + dizzy....

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:58 pm 
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Coil packs are far superior to dizzy's due to the fact that they have a hell of a lot more dwell (time between each time the coil pack fires) due to there being 2 more coils in a coil pack than a dizzy setup. When your talking about hi po setups where your running huge compression, boost or giggle gas, the voltage needed to bridge the gap of your plugs must be higher due to the higher density of the non conductive (relative) fuel air mix. If you are looking at the 2 systems the coil packs is by far the way to go, hence the reason why all new cars run them. All of this taken in to account.... the ford I6 is by nature not a high revving engine (ie 8000rpm of some jap stuff) therefore this then equates to marginally longer dwell for your older style dizzy setups, so they will work to a certain degree. If you are looking at building a monster motor with a dizzy setup then a good investment would be a high performance coil. Brett (terroristghia) will back me up on this as he had to opt for a better coil when he did his NOS setup.

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:02 pm 
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So you're saying that a 4L with Dizzy and aftermarket Coil will be more than sufficient for what most of these people want to do? (Ie, run Megasquirt MSnS) :)

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:31 pm 
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Spork wrote:
The coil pack would probabily give you more accurate and consistant spark timing, but how much I couldn't say. Your probabily not going to get it spot on (+- 1degree) with aftermarket tuning anyway.

If I was going to do it I would say go with coil packs since it means you can get rid of the Totally totally crap dizzy mounting location. Under the inlet manifold wtf! -made a 5 min lead changing job into a whole day!
Does anyone know why ford did that rather than driving off the camshaft like just about every other modern car.


I think it was cost related personally. If you have a look at an X series bare block side by side with that of an e-series, you see that the channel where the camshaft used to be, now sits an auxilary shaft, which runs the dizzy. Basically, the same block but with now cam down the bottom. So Im thinking cost cutting.

And jaysen, thinking about what you just said regarding bigger coil. Wouldn't the dizzy need changing, as a bigger spark will either be restrained or probably cause damamge with the current rotor and cap? ie I can't see my dizzy running much through it at all. I dunno what the fords run on (voltage and current) but im sure a bigger coil they wouldn't be used it.


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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:59 am 
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Brad- yup in a nut shell the dizzy will be sufficient for what most of the guys on the forums are looking to do with thier falcons, however a revised coilpack system (not necessarily the EF ones) would be the pinacle of performance. Dima- your dizzy conducts very high amounts of low current high voltage electricity. Probably the only problem that you would encounter running a super coil as such would be insulator bridging. if this was the case then you would really only have a problem from further down the line (ie leads or plugs) as electricity always takes the easiest path.

 

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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:50 am 
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so does anyone know what the max is for the EL dizzy setup in term of HP and what have people gotten out of the standard ignition system??
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:02 pm 
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blownxr wrote:
so does anyone know what the max is for the EL dizzy setup in term of HP and what have people gotten out of the standard ignition system??


pyroay is at 406RWKW on an EL XR6, I presume Dizzy.. his only issues are traction, clutch and fuel so far :)

Are there any real advantages of a wasted spark configuration?

 

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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:04 pm 
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Jaysen wrote:
Brad- yup in a nut shell the dizzy will be sufficient for what most of the guys on the forums are looking to do with thier falcons, however a revised coilpack system (not necessarily the EF ones) would be the pinacle of performance..


I guess if these guys are looking @ EDIS->TFI conversion to allow them to easily and cheaply integrate the MegaSquirt ECU, then they're not looking for the pinacle of performance, they're looking for bang for buck. For anyone chasing every last KW they'd end up going with an ECU which would allow them to run a coil per cylinder :)

 

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