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EFI Gremlins!!!! 

 

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 Post subject: EFI Gremlins!!!!
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:21 am 
Oompa Loompa
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Age: 48

Posts: 35

Joined: 24th Sep 2010

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Ride: 98 Fairlane Concorde 4.0

Location: Sunshine Coast
QLD, Australia

Hi fellow Ford fans, I feel like I know a few of you already, been reading old threads here half the day. Sorry its a long rant, but Im at a loss and the more info I can give the more likely to find an answer, I hope. If you want, just skip to the last paragraph, I summarised my questions there.

Some background, EA series 1, MPFI, 5 spd S Wagon. Car ran fine, pulled hard for a stockie. I ran out of fuel, went to rock the car and listen for fuel, and I heard something loose inside the tank. I thought it was the spout of a funnels or something. I got fuel and started it, the car never ran right again. Idle fine, but wont rev past 3,000 and backfires through the airbox if you give even 1/2 throttle. No, it wasnt the pump, turns out that the baffle was free but Id bought a pump. Maybe a week later, the new pump stops, it turns out it was the relays not the pump, both the green and brown one were toast when hot. So I changed them too. Could that baffle cause a short of some sort that fried the relays and maybe the ECU?? I tried to get codes from the ECU, nadda. But Im a persistent bugger and I ended up getting something, I got 11 and nothing else (system fine).

So cut a long story short ..well shorter, Fuel pump replaced (new Goss), Dissy and TFI (Bosch new), Alt (85amp, bosch new) and needed a new rack so got the sensor as well. Got sick of spending $$$ and getting nowhere so I tried known working injectors, reg, O2, the air one under the log manifold, temp sensor, nothing fixed it. I checked wiring for the pump, even ran a wire through the car from relay to pump and left a test light on it to see if it cut out while driving, its in the car so I can see it. It did drop out briefly, so thats when I guessed the relays were fried. Replaced them, but the car still ran the same. Worse still, after a few weeks it burnt the green one of those relays out too. Obviously fuel and air filter, plugs leads rotor etc were all done too.

I changed battery, when I hook it up again, revs drop wildly from 1400 down to 600, 1200 300 1500 then stall type thing, all in under 30 seconds. Turn key and it fires up and idles at say 1400 for maybe 30 seconds, then the whole up and down thing again and did that for a week or two with moments of running OK. Coughing to take off, kangaroo, splutter and popping out the airbox, sometimes for a few minutes, then off it goes albeit still light throttle and <3.000rpm.

So I got an ECU to try, it originally had a 7DAC, and I fitted an 0DAC. Cheers to whoever made that list. Prior to this ECU, if I kept it under 3000 and <1/2 throttle to accelerate it will drive but sometimes it got temperamental and played up something fierce, then comes OK'ish (back to <3000 and <1/2 throttle, never good).

When i fitted the later ECU it did the same thing the old ECU after pulling the battery, only not as severe. I was able to base time it, tried to set base idle, that took forever as by the time I got to set idle it was idling erratically again. After a while of hunting idle, it will now idle and fairly smooth at around 750-800, most of the time, then it starts its nonsense again, but I left it sit idling, stall, restart, stall etc for 5-10 minutes, it eventually calmed down and just idled, drives okish still. So enough back ground, I think you get the picture.

I pulled the codes from the new ECU. Can anyone tell me what the error codes 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 indicate? I cant find any info apart from a link to a US site full of good info on EFI, but they state EGR issues, and E series dont have EGR. (Ive looked at heaps of sites, I think it was linked from here too, Ive lost track).

I probably should mention, cold start, old and new ECU, it will rev its head off and pulls like it did when I first got it, just to tease me. I swear the b*tch is possessed. Timing chain isnt new, its not dead right, but its not running on at all and the timing mark only moved slightly from Ign mark, and that mostly the idle change I think. I can rock the pulley a little so it may explain some of the hunting, but not all of the issues.


Some codes I pulled from it, I retested a few times.

Installed ECU, start car, ran very rough for maybe 10 minutes before I tested.
KOEO
11
16
22
23

Engine running
12
13
23
41

Next test after base timing, and base idle set
KOEO
11
10
11 ( I had not cleared the earlier data, yet it didnt reappear)

Running
23
13

So I took it for a run, what the hell. Coughed lots, got it to the main rd (country rds), and it drove sort of. Eventually hit 100 drove for maybe 50km's to a servo altering speed 80 - 110 to get the ECU at various settings. Pulled up and let it sit idling, it hunted for idle, then came sweet at idle, I let it sit like that for 10-15 minutes. I could even push the throttle past 3,000 although I was tentative, not snapping to 3,000 and not much past it. It returned to idle it would hunt for a second then sit sweet. So I drove it home, it spluttered at highway speed occasionally, back off pedal, then reapply slow, it was OK at 100 until I hit a hill, a tad more throttle, some hills I held my foot the same still spluttered, or dropped to 70-80, back to 3rd gear, and it held to the crest and then continued like before at highway speed. So i get near home and when I backed off to go through town, it ran like a dog, pulled up and let the idle sort itself out again. After maybe 5 minutes it idles fairly evenly again. Open a door and interior lights come on, idle splutters. Close door, splutter slows and idle returns slowly (ISC?) but the whole time, the parkers were on. I tested the light theory by letting the idle return, reopen the door, idle hunts, close door, idle slowly returns again. I let it sit for a few minutes with fairly even idle, and when i hopped back in the car, the interior light didnt effect the idle this time. So I drive it the last couple K's home and reran the tests.

KOEO
12
41
The KOEO test was hastily written without looking at the pad (watching the light), so the notes arent clear here, but I think the mem codes also show the series from 31-35 (see below).

Running
11
10
31
32
33
34
35

So I was thinking, 41 = O2 running lean on fuel test. And it did smell lean at the exhaust while idling at the servo, add in the mild hills having a dramatic effect at highway speed, running lean would explain both those (IMO). So does the O2 error code mean the O2 is sending a voltage outside its own working range, or does it mean the O2 sent the signal it should, and that the engine is running lean? Or whatever these 31-35 codes are may be causing the lean readings. Or am I interpreting that code wrong and it does mean the O2 is a dud and the ECU flagged it?

Sorry for the ramble, its one hell of a first post. Thanks for listening, and Id really appreciate any insights. Even a match at this point. That US website details how to clean injectors, so Im going to see if I can get the bits from Bursons or KB and give that a go. I have an ABW multimeter so if someone can point me towards threads with data on testing O2, injectors, etc, Id appreciate it. I cant seem to find them, but did see references in posts to stickies, but I cant find them either, its all doing my head in. Ill probably replace the O2 with one off ebay, but Id like to test anyway just for my own knowledge. And what do the codes 31-35 mean?

Cheers.

 

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Silver NL Fairlane Concorde 98 4.0

1978 XC Fairmont GXL Update 5.8 with 218 Cam @ 50

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 Post subject: Re: EFI Gremlins!!!!
Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:13 am 
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Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

Installed ECU, start car, ran very rough for maybe 10 minutes before I tested.
KOEO
11 System Pass
16 RPM To Low To Run Fuel Test
22 MAP Out Of Range
23 TPS Out Of Range

Engine running
12 High Idle Cannot Be Maintained For Test
13 Engine Did Not Return To A Specified Lower RPM
23 TPS Out Of Range
41 HEGO Output Voltage Is <0.5V (Lean)

Next test after base timing, and base idle set
KOEO
11 System Pass
10 Separator Code
11 System Pass

Running
23 TPS Out Of Range
13 Engine Did Not Return To A Specified Lower RPM

Its pretty much not telling you anything you don't know here mate...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KOEO
12 High Idle Cannot Be Maintained For Test
41 HEGO Output Voltage Is <0.5V (Lean)


Running
11 System Pass
10 Separator Code (Following Codes Were In The Computers Memory And Were No Longer Present At The Time Of Testing)
31 V8 Code
32 V8 Code
33 V8 Code
34 V8 Code
35 V8 Code

I think the computer you have is for a V8 cos its giving v8 codes that don't exist in the I6 list...

*Now your hego says your lean... But you know that because you said it smells lean and is probably running hot being lean... So I doubt thats a problem because its confirming your suspicion

*MAP is out of range... But it seems odd to get it during the KOEO test... Because the MAP performs no place in that test... Only when its Running... Maybe try a second hand MAP? If its backfired chances are it blown the guts out of the map...

*TPS is out of range... Maybe detected during KOEO test I suppose... Maybe its thinking you have the throttle wide open and the ISC is dropping off and thats why you s**t idle? Maybe try a second hand TPS?

Other than that its telling you about your rev problems... Not why... I have a list of causes for each one in the factory repair manual but thats a lot more typing I don't feel like at present... I think that second batch of codes you gave come from a v8 computer... Or one that thinks it a v8 computer... Maybe try another computer out...

Other than that not much more I can say I don't think... Green relay under header tank is fuel pump, brown is the power to the EEC module... Rare they die... Maybe you've got an engine loom thats rubbed through somewhere and is earthing a sensor or sensors out and thats why its running like a b**ch? You got any blown fueses anywhere?

See how you go anyway...

Cheers,
Tim

 

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93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

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 Post subject: Re: EFI Gremlins!!!!
Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:05 am 
Oompa Loompa
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Age: 48

Posts: 35

Joined: 24th Sep 2010

Gallery: 4 images

Ride: 98 Fairlane Concorde 4.0

Location: Sunshine Coast
QLD, Australia

Tim thanks for responding and reading all that, its much appreciated.

I dont think it can be from a V8, EA didnt come out with an 8, AFAIK catch codes starting with 0 are EA series 2. EB has a V8 but their catch codes start with 1 or 2 ...unless someones been inside it and changed some bits, if thats possible. But I wouldnt have thought a V8 ECU would even start a six?

Its definitely back fired lol, if that can do the MAP in, then thats more than likely happened now. But the initial problem still exists too. TPS is probably a good start, I want to test mine but have no data on what it should tell me (I have some US data), I have a $100 ABW digital multimeter here capable of measuring upto meg ohms, and I assume the TPS works in K ohms or volts so that should be fine to test with. After reading the article I linked to below, Im going to throw in a new O2 just to be sure.

Id prefer not to swap another ECU (unless it is the fault) as it takes ages to just get the thing to idle and drive, I mean hours of idle, hunt, stall, idle, hunt, stall just to be able to get it to take off. Then to take it for a long run which helps rebuild KAM (I assume thats what its doing) puts too much strain on the drivetrain due to the rough running in the beginning, I hate doing it, it cant be good for the 5 speed. I read today that the KAM memory is critical to an engine that is less than band new, adaptive strategies. It uses the KAM to compensate for wearing parts and to simulate a more accurate setting from slightly out of range sensors. Apparently it runs a fuel table based on a set fuel ratio, and as the engine wears it will use maths to calculate a better fuel mix. That calculation comes from a table it builds over time in KAM for similar conditions, when you disconnect from battery the KAM table reverts to 1's, yeah, set ratio times 1 is set ratio, well thats less than helpful. So it then uses x.09 and x1.2 until it builds a new adaptive dataset, the more wear or out of range sensors are, the longer it takes to get it right (or something like that). Heres a link I got it from if youre interested, bottom of page last section (Adaptive strategies) http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=64 Sorry if this link is against rules or something, I hope its not, I think i got the link from a thread here anyway.

I now am pretty sure the ECU isnt the drama, its a sensor or an air leak maybe, just need to work out which one(s) so as not to go wasting good $$ on things that aint broke. If you ever feel like typing, or have a scanner handy, that would be great mate. :( this smilie really needs to be begging. :lol: If you feel up to it, the problems list you mention would be awesome along with test values for the TPS, Air Charge Temp, ISC, Engine Coolant Temp, MAP oh and speed sensors if manuals have one. Im not sure the US data I have is accurate for us, the website seems to be based on Mustangs and F series with V8, so not sure what ours should read. I understand if you dont want to type it all out though, if its the genuine Ford manual the lists are probably huge.

Heres another tidbit, EEC are Intel :shock:

Cheers, Gary.

 

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Silver NL Fairlane Concorde 98 4.0

1978 XC Fairmont GXL Update 5.8 with 218 Cam @ 50

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 Post subject: Re: EFI Gremlins!!!!
Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:18 am 
Technical Contributor
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Ride: ED Falcon

Power: 133 rwkw

Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

Hi Gary,

The catch code corresponds to the year usually any your right there wasn't a v8 to EBII... The computer in my ED is a 3DAC from memory... because its a 93 model...

I have an El computer here which will go in it one day (chipped) and its a 6xxx which is irrelevant now because its chipped and changed from base to near tickford settings and from auto to manual...

So I'm guessing the 0 means 90 model computer? Either way assuming your not missing any flashes of the code its giving v8 codes so it sounds like its s**t its pants...

When I swap out computers (trialled my chipped one) it was unplug, plug in... starts and runs like it was never changed (shows up on dyno as slightly rich until it learns its AFR's)... No hunting, none of that... You shouldn't have that trouble either... You should plug in a new one and it should start and run like new... Assuming all the sensors are working...

TPS is a potentiometer... So a multimeter should be able to test it... I'm unaware of its parameters...

If you PM me your email I'll send you some info I have but be aware its two 30MB files... These files will help you as much as anything else could... Just gotta have the time to read it and shift through the info to find what your chasing...

Cheers,
Tim

 

_________________

93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

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 Post subject: Re: EFI Gremlins!!!!
Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:12 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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Age: 48

Posts: 35

Joined: 24th Sep 2010

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Ride: 98 Fairlane Concorde 4.0

Location: Sunshine Coast
QLD, Australia

Any information would be very handy, so I have PM my email addy to you for those files, and thanks for that Tim, they should come in very handy.

The codes are definitely 31-35, I tested them several times to be sure, which I agree is very odd. Even if it sh*t itself, where does it get the codes from? They shouldnt even be in its data. Looking at the excel doc I have, any variation of 0DA(?) is 3.9 MPFI manual, EA II, no EGR stuff anywhere so Im lost on how to explain that. The old ECU is back in, and the car is running the same as the other ECU, but not showing codes for 31-35.

I think more than one sensor is giving odd readings, cold start, it idles fine, revs hard if I floor it under load so its unlikely to be mechanical things causing the excessive idle issue it has. So I need to sort out the sensors first and work from there. Im not expecting to get it perfect, just reasonable.

Ive seen a nice well maintained DA LTD. Do a BBM conversion to get rid of that ungodly difficult to work under log manifold and fit the 4 spd auto Ive got here or possibly the 5 speed if the clutch isnt a hassle, Im not sure if the firewall has the outlet for the cable. Ive got a partial rebuild kit here for a 3.9, new fed mog pistons, a new set of 16 lash adjusters (need to check if they are the small ones or not, Im pretty sure they are the larger ones so Id need the rocker set up from the later engines) and a few other bits, maybe Ill buy the DA and then fit my 3.9 in about 6 months after a rebuild. The DA has a decent motor in it now, runs sweet and the shell and interior are near perfect.

Thanks Tim for the input, its probably helped just to bounce thoughts of someone other than myself, that information youve got may just be the icing my cake needs.

Cheers mate, Gary.

 

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Silver NL Fairlane Concorde 98 4.0

1978 XC Fairmont GXL Update 5.8 with 218 Cam @ 50

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 Post subject: Re: EFI Gremlins!!!!
Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:34 pm 
Technical Contributor
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Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

Hi Gary,

Will send it through shortly... I reckon there is something suss about that "0" computer... I don't know anything of their inner workings though...

You will have a hole for the clutch cable... All models do to my knowledge, some autos just have wiring running through it from factory...

See how you go with this info anyway mate... Lot of guys on here who can help you out if the problems persist...

Cheers,
Tim

 

_________________

93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: EFI Gremlins!!!!
Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:03 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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Age: 48

Posts: 35

Joined: 24th Sep 2010

Gallery: 4 images

Ride: 98 Fairlane Concorde 4.0

Location: Sunshine Coast
QLD, Australia

Thanks Tim, the hole for the clutch is a start and good to know, I wasnt sure if they had it or not, but companies being frugal likely used the same firewall and modded or plugged as necessary, I'd need to reinforce it before it rips through. Ive already done my pedal box. Alternatively Ill need to make a bracket to put the strain on the cable rather than the firewall this time, its a bit messy reinforcing the firewall.

Gary.

 

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Silver NL Fairlane Concorde 98 4.0

1978 XC Fairmont GXL Update 5.8 with 218 Cam @ 50

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