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Wolf 3d v4 in ef 

 

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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:55 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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tjb45 wrote:
This is my original Map, over a year old, It was done using the Modified trigger wheel, and standard fuel system. It started and run great, but had very little power.
http://www.wssc.vic.edu.au/turbo/hp%20tune.wmf

This is about 6 months ago. Setup is with standard EF trigger wheel(harmonic balancer), with filter board from wolf installed. Has 360cc injectors, walbro fuel pump, and 2-1 malpassi regulator running 80psi at idle (way to high I know). Started ok but had a bit of a rev flare at starting (up to about 1700rpm) and a few problem with holding at 2000rpm in natural some times. Easy problems to fix with a few setting changes.
Also this is the tune that had the random miss between 900-1300rpm

http://www.wssc.vic.edu.au/turbo/Miss%2 ... 0-1300.wmf

I hope this helps a little.

The last file represents a bit over $2000 worth of collective tuning.. Sad I know, but I had my car tuned at some very average places before I decided to take it to Melbourne to find someone that knew what they were doing...
Moral of the story, find a good tuner, and stick with them, I got sucked into placed that said they knew how to tune my car, but had no idea at all, in the end they did more damage then good.


Good luck..



hi

ok , im understanding you are having a stumble( flat spot or in your words a missfire ) when u press the accelerater peddle, say from cruising along and then you accelerate to get the car moving faster.

That would indicate an acceleration enrichment problem to me !!!!! IE Either you have too much fuel pumped in when the throttle is opened or you have not enough fuel, one or the other, which will cause the car to hesitate ( flat spot ), then eventually pickup. There is a precise amount of fuel enrichment that is required when the accelerator peddle is pressed for each specific engine type for smooth engine response.



question why u running such high fuel pressure ???

100KPa = 14.4 psi = 1 bar

Most EFI sytems in a normally aspirated setup, run at idle 250KPa and when the throttle is pressed the fuel pressure regulater adjusts the fuel another 50KPa, so in total you should have about 300kpa.

Another question, how modified is your engine and what sort of horsepower are u producing on a chassis dyno? What brand of dyno are these horsepower figures from ?

Im just trying to work out why you are running 330cc injectors as they are extremely large if your engine is a stocker/standard or there abouts.

I have no horsepower figures so Im making an assumption here about the injectors being too large, so I might have to wait on you telling me some horsepower figures that you have for your engine, from all the dyno time you have spent .

Go to this site and make a caculation on your injector size and fuel pressure you are running. It will make a size calculation for you and lets see what it comes up with as compared to what setup you are running now. Judging from what I have read, I would have to say they are too large and fuel pressure is too high. Yes, I know the wolf has made the injectors work a specific pulsewidth for your engine but lets see what it calculates.
http://www.iroczone.com/calcs/injectorsize.htm

I will have to wait and see what other info you supply and I will have a look at the tune maps you posted here, as I couldnt open the files on a friends PC.

cheers

 

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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:49 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Thanks again FPV, your very committed to this, which I really appreciate. :)
I've just rebuild my motor to suit my turbo setup, nothing special, just some lower comp pistons, o-ringed block, and some bigger stainless valves.

The Map I posted last, which was running 80psi at idle was set to that by the place that did that tune(shop 1). I didn’t know until I got it home and put a fuel pressure gauge on it that it was so high. With a 2-1 regulator and between 10-15psi of boost it would of been getting over 100psi behind the injectors in theory(ridiculously high)
I was hoping that the higher fuel pressure was the cause of the miss. I was getting 220 rwkw out of that tune on my 270,000 old engine, and it was tuned on a dyno dynamics dyno.
When I got the car tuned last (shop 2), we found out that the fuel pump shop 1 supplied was unable to supply enough fuel (would drop off as revs increased), so my guess is shop 1 tried to compensate by running huge base fuel pressure. As you can imagine I wasn't really happy about having to replace a fuel pump that was less then 6 months old, not to mention not been told by Shop 1 that it was a problem...
My car is now running about 45psi at idle with a new fuel pump setup.

The fuel enrichment idea is good thinking, but I can get the miss while cruising at 60 or 80kph, when there is no acceleration. I've found that if I drive at about 80kph and I get the car in to the 28 load band, and get the revs between 1500-1600rpm it will have a fairly constant but still spasmodic miss, and the same around 55-60kph.

Its definitely not a flat spot, when it happens its more like a really quick rev or boost cut,,,,, which now that I think of it.... When I first put the 36-1 config in, with no filter board, the car would run perfectly up un-until about 3500rpm, then it would be like it was hitting a rev cut, with the filter board installed the 3500 rpm cut was fixed but this random miss showed its head.. I wonder if its a bit of a hang over from the original problem... Just thinking out loud...

Anyway, Thanks again for the help, keep shooting ideas at me, it would be great to get this fixed, as you can imaging its a pain in the a** having the car missing so much while just cruising around at these speeds..

One last thing, Under full acceleration I don’t seem to have the miss, this might be because it flashed past the problem rev range so quickly...

Cheers
Tim
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Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:46 pm 
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Thanks heaps for those maps, im sure theyll come in handy.

Just another question, has anybody, or company, made a plug and play harness for the v4 into ef, or any falcon?

 

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Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:34 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Location: Melbourne
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bogan393 wrote:
Thanks heaps for those maps, im sure theyll come in handy.

Just another question, has anybody, or company, made a plug and play harness for the v4 into ef, or any falcon?


hi

to actually fit the ford EEC-5 harness connector NO , but it shouldnt be difficult to get a old ford ECU and hack it and make ur own harnes to plug straight into the ford wiring loom of ur car that way its not altered or to run them side by side ( PIGGYBACK STYLE )

Know a few guys who have done this to there cars

cheers

 

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Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:49 pm 
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Location: Melbourne
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tjb45 wrote:
Thanks again FPV, your very committed to this, which I really appreciate. :)
I've just rebuild my motor to suit my turbo setup, nothing special, just some lower comp pistons, o-ringed block, and some bigger stainless valves.

The Map I posted last, which was running 80psi at idle was set to that by the place that did that tune(shop 1). I didn’t know until I got it home and put a fuel pressure gauge on it that it was so high. With a 2-1 regulator and between 10-15psi of boost it would of been getting over 100psi behind the injectors in theory(ridiculously high)
I was hoping that the higher fuel pressure was the cause of the miss. I was getting 220 rwkw out of that tune on my 270,000 old engine, and it was tuned on a dyno dynamics dyno.
When I got the car tuned last (shop 2), we found out that the fuel pump shop 1 supplied was unable to supply enough fuel (would drop off as revs increased), so my guess is shop 1 tried to compensate by running huge base fuel pressure. As you can imagine I wasn't really happy about having to replace a fuel pump that was less then 6 months old, not to mention not been told by Shop 1 that it was a problem...
My car is now running about 45psi at idle with a new fuel pump setup.

The fuel enrichment idea is good thinking, but I can get the miss while cruising at 60 or 80kph, when there is no acceleration. I've found that if I drive at about 80kph and I get the car in to the 28 load band, and get the revs between 1500-1600rpm it will have a fairly constant but still spasmodic miss, and the same around 55-60kph.

Its definitely not a flat spot, when it happens its more like a really quick rev or boost cut,,,,, which now that I think of it.... When I first put the 36-1 config in, with no filter board, the car would run perfectly up un-until about 3500rpm, then it would be like it was hitting a rev cut, with the filter board installed the 3500 rpm cut was fixed but this random miss showed its head.. I wonder if its a bit of a hang over from the original problem... Just thinking out loud...

Anyway, Thanks again for the help, keep shooting ideas at me, it would be great to get this fixed, as you can imaging its a pain in the a** having the car missing so much while just cruising around at these speeds..

One last thing, Under full acceleration I don’t seem to have the miss, this might be because it flashed past the problem rev range so quickly...

Cheers
Tim


hi

ok making more sense why such large injectors

ur vehicle is turbo 6 cylinder approx 220rwkwatts plus

injectors are not a issue u can run bigger injectors as long as the 3D wolf is tuned right for them

the fuel pressure was way out of charactor and a rise rate regulator is not required when u have a programmable ECU , my opnion i would be using a standard falcon one and remap the fuel tablers properly

a rise rate fuel regulator is use in several diffent case for example

1 when running standard injectors people dont ewant to spend more money so they try and squeeze more fuel through there standard injectors a real crued method of fixing a fuel problem.

2 when people use stand facory ECU once again a band aid fix fuel system

3 fuel pump to small

4 , i have so so often on super charge engine convertions where these so call kits have a raise rate fuekl regulator to conpensate for increased air into the cylinders of a engine by just raising the fuel pressure through standard injectors when the engine is on boost again reputable supercgarge kits sold by many people its amazing , the answer is a reprogrammable ECU and fix the fuel system properly none of these band aid fixes

but back on ur misfire "but I can get the miss while cruising at 60 or 80kph, when there is no acceleration. I've found that if I drive at about 80kph and I get the car in to the 28 load band, and get the revs between 1500-1600rpm it will have a fairly constant but still spasmodic miss, and the same around 55-60kph. " i would be using someones dyno and running the vehicle at those road speeds and load pionts to simulate driving on the street and making the car misfire and try and find the fault then , locate which cylinder or cylinders are misfiring using a dyno and engine anlyzer together to see ignition patterns

i have run out of ideas , but like i siad i will keep u posted when i have my engine running on high boost and coil pack system

cheers

 

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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:05 am 
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Thanks again FPV, I'm going to try and remove the filter board, and see how the car runs, if it gets rid of the miss at low rpm then it will surely help in narrowing down the problem.

Cheers
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:48 am 
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ohh so a fuel pressure reg isnt required with the wolf? i got some 42lb injectors, walbro pump and the wolf so i wont be required to the malpassi i bought?

Also good luck tjb45 getting it sorted out.

 

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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:03 am 
Getting Side Ways
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bogan393 wrote:
ohh so a fuel pressure reg isnt required with the wolf? i got some 42lb injectors, walbro pump and the wolf so i wont be required to the malpassi i bought?

Also good luck tjb45 getting it sorted out.


hi

thats the whole reason why u have a programmable fuel/ignition 3D wolf for, to adjust the time (ms) the injectors open for to inject the correct fuel requirement for the particular load of the engines rev range

increasing fuel pressure ( rise rate regulator ) is a bandaid fix for fuel systems problems where a particular injector size needs to squeeze more fuel to the engine and people have no other way of controlling fuel requirement , but u have a micro processor to control ur injectors

just make sure ur injectors and fuel pump can flow the correct amount of fuel for the horsepower out put of ur engine and u can use a standard ford regulater

always have 20% to 30% in reserve , meaning do not have the injectors and fuel pump max out at 100% duty cycle

cheers

 

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:27 am 
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so did you end up getting rid of the miss???
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:32 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Yep finally got it sorted out.

I changed the leads, spark plugs, coil packs, crank angle sensor, redid the wiring, change fuel settings, with not change.

Then I had a look at the timing map, and knocked the timing back 3 deg. where the car was missing then bingo, no miss.

Its a bit weird that it was missing on both tunes, but at leased its fixed now.

It wasn't running all that much timing, so I'm not really sure "why" it was missing. Maybe the charge and discharge times are incorrect for the coil packs.
What are other people running??

Cheers
Tim
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