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BA/BF head on a EF/EL block. 

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:12 pm 
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its bull s**t..
i have physically seen the difference between the two and there is alot that needs to be done and re engineered to make it work, hense the reason no one bothers doing it..

and over all its not just the dohc head that makes the difference, its the combination of better comp from barra bottom end and better engine management from the ba/bf that gives the extra kw over the sohc..

if anyone did bother doing it i bet it would make no more power over the sohc on the std sohc ecu..
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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:44 pm 
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actually the answer appears to be "yes" but it will require lots of custom work and figuring out. circa 2003 the answer for "can i fit a BA engine to my "XX" was no, but that turned out to be possible - it just took someone to do the work to figure it out.
The main problem with the full barra conversion is that you need to modify the sub frame which if something goes wrong could see you in a lot of trouble.

I suggest you guys read up on what a "ZVH" engine is, this is in the same ballpark, except strangely enough the opposite way around.

i may seem to be on a bit of a crusade here, but i get sick of the bolt on brigade claiming things are impossible.

Does anyone have multiple SOHC/DOHC engines in parts? condition of the engines isnt important - i would like to purchase them and have a crack at this.

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:41 am 
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Go ahead and waste your time.

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:38 am 
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JOSE wrote:
actually the answer appears to be "yes" but it will require lots of custom work and figuring out. circa 2003 the answer for "can i fit a BA engine to my "XX" was no, but that turned out to be possible - it just took someone to do the work to figure it out.
The main problem with the full barra conversion is that you need to modify the sub frame which if something goes wrong could see you in a lot of trouble.

I suggest you guys read up on what a "ZVH" engine is, this is in the same ballpark, except strangely enough the opposite way around.

i may seem to be on a bit of a crusade here, but i get sick of the bolt on brigade claiming things are impossible.

Does anyone have multiple SOHC/DOHC engines in parts? condition of the engines isnt important - i would like to purchase them and have a crack at this.


Can you post a link a of BA head onto a e-series block? and I would love to see this for $1000 like the OP said.

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:40 am 
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good luck with it JOSE.

It'd be good to see it photographically documented.
atleast then it can be decided if the issues faced are able to be worked around.

it may not be as good as a proper BA engine, but thats not the point.

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:56 am 
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Hmmm, I would appear to have all of the required parts to mock this up.

But, I couldn't be bothered wasting my time on such a fruitless effort.

I did my BA into EB conversion for under $1800, including purchasing the XCal flash unit.

If any of the Sydney guys want to come around and take pictures etc, I have a BARRA block with the head ready to be removed, and the timing case already taken off etc.

In my opinion, if you are not going to make use of the VCT part of the BARRA, which is where a lot of the performance and economy gains are found in a daily driver scenario, then I just don't see the point.

Cheers
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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:11 pm 
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i will be heading to the wreckers saturday morning with the verniers in hand to do some measuring and will purchase the parts if it looks like a go.

the project will progress as follows:

measure parts (mainly head stud spacings) between SOHC and DOHC
compare timing arrangement (use of BA crank and cam sprockets, modified SOHC aux shaft)

if both are a go i will purchase a pair of high KM engines swap / modify parts as needed - i can do it well enough for proof of concept but not enough for a running engine.

if this stage works out i will purchase a good BA head and inlet, get it all modified by a pro ($$$) then fit it all to my ED (will need to fly cut my pistons), and wire up with standard ED computer (without the distributor - so either EDIS-6 or something aftermarket) and do a dyno run - im not expecting big gains at this stage.

then i will get it tuned on the SOHC ECU, if gains are not as expected i will then get a BA ecu, get the security flashed out and fit it to take advantage on VCT and all the other really modern goodies.

i am keen on this as i already have one car i shouldnt really be driving as it cant be insured untill i hand over a BIG wad of cash to an engineer. from my dealings with them i wouldnt like the odds of getting a chopped K-frame engineered in VIC without it costing BIG dollars.

i will also add this as evidence - a "missing link" if you will.
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php?/topic/28874-freak-hybrid-early-barra-engine/

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Ok, the local wrecker scrapped all of their junk engines friday (so none sitting around missing the head etc to measure) - and the local auto shop didnt have a BA headgasket to compare to a SOHC one.

So, are there any melb/vic members with cheap high K engines they want to get rid cheap of as im not really in a financial position to spend $1000 odd dollars on good motors to play with. prefer EL and an early BA (up to 9/03)

coincidentally comparing the shape of a BA timing cover to an EL one they share a passing resemblance and early BA's use the same water pump which is re-assuring but power steering pump are different but i cant confirm the bolt arrangement.

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:52 pm 
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I have secured a BA engine from a member for Free, i will now try and find a cheap/free SOHC engine.

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:24 pm 
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This may be a little off topic

But i have read some where on these forums or AFF

Hear me out though this may sound like bs / wrong and it may be

apparently there was a "dual" cam AU engine which found its way into the states i believe or in the land down under people believed it was a "prototype" for the BA , it was a AU engine but had dual cam or more valves or something "fancy" i am unsure as it was years ago i read this.

Plus getting your hands on such a thing would be like winning the lottery and driving it and flogging it would be to scary as if you ever damaged it you would be up s**t's creek with out a paddle
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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:33 pm 
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EF_wanabe wrote:
This may be a little off topic

But i have read some where on these forums or AFF

Hear me out though this may sound like bs / wrong and it may be

apparently there was a "dual" cam AU engine which found its way into the states i believe or in the land down under people believed it was a "prototype" for the BA , it was a AU engine but had dual cam or more valves or something "fancy" i am unsure as it was years ago i read this.

Plus getting your hands on such a thing would be like winning the lottery and driving it and flogging it would be to scary as if you ever damaged it you would be up s**t's creek with out a paddle


if you click on the link 3 posts up you will see it...
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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:21 am 
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TROYMAN wrote:
EF_wanabe wrote:
This may be a little off topic

But i have read some where on these forums or AFF

Hear me out though this may sound like bs / wrong and it may be

apparently there was a "dual" cam AU engine which found its way into the states i believe or in the land down under people believed it was a "prototype" for the BA , it was a AU engine but had dual cam or more valves or something "fancy" i am unsure as it was years ago i read this.

Plus getting your hands on such a thing would be like winning the lottery and driving it and flogging it would be to scary as if you ever damaged it you would be up s**t's creek with out a paddle


if you click on the link 3 posts up you will see it...


Ah dam i skipped straight past it but that is the link i saw ages ago

never mind people about my post
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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:26 am 
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This is the stupidest thing i've seen here for a long time.

There will be more time and money spent trying to get a BA head to go where it will NEVER fit, then what it would cost to just modify the sump and fit the whole BA motor.

The front of the blocks are different, the timing covers are different, the chain drives are different and the chain tensioners are different. The BA doesn't have an Aux shaft and has a single row chain, you will not find a way to get the chain drive to work with a BA head and SOHC block.
Forget what ford did with it's early prototypes and pre-production stuff, you don't have the resources that ford have.
You can't get custom cam drive parts, cast a one off timing cover and have it machined at a cost that will make this worthwhile.

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:37 am 
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tickford_6 wrote:
This is the stupidest thing i've seen here for a long time.

There will be more time and money spent trying to get a BA head to go where it will NEVER fit, then what it would cost to just modify the sump and fit the whole BA motor.


Spot on Tickford_6

 

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 Post subject: Re: BA/BF head on a EF/EL block.
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:45 am 
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earth is centre of the universe,world is flat, man cannot fly - got it.

the link to the pre-production DOHC engine was to reiterate that it is simply an evoloution of the SOHC as it was of the OHV6 before it. its not like ford hired some blokes off the street who knew nothing about the SOHC motor and got them to design their new one (although with some of the knowledge on display in this thread im sure they could have).

we all know that rods/cranks/pistons can be swapped in certain combinations between these motors - and the arrangement of the galleries is close enough, and i keep seeing it mentioned that the blocks are similar in conversion threads - so its not like im trying to fit a pair of these to a flathead V12 or something.

I cant understand the butthurt from the guys that recon its silly and we should all just fit the complete DOHC engine for $2 or whatever it costs according to whoever has fitted one (Conveniently ignoring the legalities of taking to your K-Frame with a grinder and a MIG. im 90% the way through a Bachelors in Engineering degree and it scares the s**t out of me that shadetrees are doing this mod).I say to them that they wasted their time when a whole BA can be had for next to nothing as well, and then you get the advantages of the newer chassis and suspension.

A member even stated they had all the parts to confirm/deny this ideas feasibility but due to their devotion to ther own $1800 conversion they wouldnt even try it (scared it might look possible??)

The members who bothered to show up to the AFD would have seen my escort and would know roughly my ability to bolt things together that are not meant to be. Im sorry if i havn't posted every little automotive achievement of mine on here but im usually too busy y'know - Trying new things to bother coming on here for the mad props.

Im still on track to collect the free barra in a couple of weeks from Ballarat, does one of the naysayers want to donate a SOHC motor so i can prove or disprove my theory?.

Which is the point here, im not saying its 100% possible and your a dumb head to all those hard working geniuses that fitted a DOHC for $1. What im saying is that without trying it we will never find out either way whether or not it is possible.

The guys on here said that Territory AWD into a B series was impossible, while someone was hard at work actually measuring and trying to fit one. Guess what it did bloody fit, and due to the efforts of people who had never even picked up a tape measure to have a looksee our forum was poorer for it.

My challenge here is that it is probably possible to fit the head, and that it is probably cheaper than fitting the whole motor (with a legally modified K-Frame) based upon MANY assumptions that i will hopefully be testing out over the coming months.

Other people challenge seems to be to shut this down without even having a go.

 

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