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Car Overheating - fans question 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:03 pm 
Parts Gopher
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thanks mate, i have thought about a cooler thermostat, but the point is they shouldnt need it, cars should run around 92 degress to be optimal. The car sits great with both fans on, the whole cooling system is almost new (as yours is) but like you say i say i might try a relay set to see if that helps ... i have a few spare cars ill change them for one of the others first to see if that helps.

Can let you know if you like

Jamin
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:35 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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All that i will say about e series is that they give out all kinds of advice without ever knowing the facts.
the relays are either 4 or 5 pin and only cost about ten bucks each from malz, so 30 or 40 bucks to eliminate that.Could be worth it for the headfu..k
Pretty sure the relays are in front of the airbox and there are 3 or 4 of them

r
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:48 pm 
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milo 302 wrote:
All that i will say about e series is that they give out all kinds of advice without ever knowing the facts.
the relays are either 4 or 5 pin and only cost about ten bucks each from malz, so 30 or 40 bucks to eliminate that.Could be worth it for the headfu..k
Pretty sure the relays are in front of the airbox and there are 3 or 4 of them

r


cheers mate yer i will be getting new ones tomorrow, and there are four spots and three relays, i just hope the pre existing ones are correct so when i replace them with a like kind i still dont have the same problem if that maybe the cause

Jamin
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:53 pm 
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Ok so I have replaced all three relays with new genuine ford ones ... Still have the same problem ... The only way I can get the fans to come on at their high speed is by disconnecting the plug from the temp sender unit ... I have a new one of those that I might chuck in too ... Also where can I get a cooler opening thermostat ... I may try that. Will most auto stores have them ??

Cheers guys
Jamin
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:00 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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yeah mate i got mine from peps..most should have them or can order them in..$20
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:07 pm 
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Do the fans come on full speed when you run the a/c or demister? They sholuld.
What i do when my el does the same thing as yours,is just turn on the demister and the temp drops coz the fans are on high :D
If they do go on high when the ac/ or demister is on that means they are fine, and there is another issue with the cooling system.
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:35 pm 
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the EL's have two speeds... both on slow and both on flat stick...

what happens is the information from the temp sender is fed into the EEC-V computer... The computer than determines whether to bring the fans on slow or fast... It also looks at what the state of the AC is, if the compressor is in then the fans are on...

So if when you "trick" the sender it brings them on full speed then is nothing in the fan circuit... There is no other input to bring the fans on other than the computer...

So that leaves two items... The sender (which on EF/EL models I believe the one sender both informs the EEC-V and moves the needle?) or the EEC-V is having issues and not bringing them on at the pre defined temp, only bringing them on at max input range from the sender...

So I'd try either a sender or a computer...

Three relays is correct for an EL this gives it two speeds with only two wires to each motor... One relay engages (one of the 4 pin SPST relays) when it needs high speed the computer grounds out the second wire, which brings in the other two relays (the 5 pin SPDT (has 87A contact?) and the 4 pin SPST)... But if the fans come on full speed when the sender is maxed, none of this power circuit controlling the fans is the problem... If one relay operated and one didn't it would cause a short circuit and blow the fuse...

EF's had 4 relays with 3 speeds and we much more complicated...

I've done masses of research pulling looms to bits to retro fit EL's fans and an EEC-V to my ED which is chiped to the cam, when I get the time to put it in one day...

Any more help let me know I'll try my best to in form... I do have info and can provide pictures if it helps with the cause... But like I said if they do max speed, it not the fan system, its before the EEC-V or is the EEC-V

However, when your out cruising there should be enough natural airflow through the front of the car to keep it cool without the use for thermos shouldn't there? (At 100km/hr)? Sounds like blockages in the cooling system...

Hope it helps...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:02 am 
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Thanks timmytimtim,

your information is fantastic. I have bought a new temp sender and will be putting that in today probably. The other thing i discovered tonight is that i now can make the fans come on high if i have the a/c fan on speed 6 or higher ???? how weird is that. (it only seems to work sometimes tho so something is dodgy). Like you mentioned i was under the impression that the fans should be on full anytime the a/c is on regardless of fan speed, so something isnt right. Now this EEC-V computer, where is that located, that isnt the main computer is it ?? And also the temp at 100kph in EF/EL and onwards very much require the fans to be on, the rest of the cooling system is almost new and i am confident there are no blockages, but alot of cars require fans at any speed, the car boarders on being ok at speed, if its under 30 degress it seems to be ok when cruising but anything over 30 and its no good unless both fans are on full.

Any more info you could give me regardling the EEC-V would be most benificial but i will change the temp sender unit over first and see if that helps, just weird that it needs the a/c fan on a certain speed but thats not always switching them on full either

Thanks again very much
Jamin
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:12 pm 
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The EEC-V is run makes the motor run... yes the main computer... lives behind the passenger kick panel... it has a 60 pin plug in the top with a M8 (i think) bolt holding it in... If you have a spare one, or borrow one from another falcon to test?

It must be an EL one, as EF ones are different (due to no dizzy) and these can be swapped with the battery still connected, just make sure the key is off...

Attachment:
EF-EL Computer Wiring Pin Outs.xls [24.5 KiB]
Downloaded 82 times


The spread sheet you see here is off the website (i think) and is only for the EL, as EF's are a different connector... Shows you where the two fan speed trigger pins are... when the computer sees enough temp for low it grounds pin 53, when it sees enough for high speed it grounds both 53 and 33...

Just my ED with the variable speed hub fan in it... It only goes flat out when idling... sort of 1200 rpm and above it drops out (I'm unsure where its rpm or temp that causes these to change speeds though...)

Its so dodgy... sounds like EEC-V might be cactus... Could've been flat and they've tried to jump start with std leads (and lack of knowledge) and when they disconnected it the regulator has spiked and fried the EEC computer... You wouldn't know... just try using a multimeter on the pins... if you push it into the wires 53 and 33 you should see 12volts when the fans are off and next to no volts when the fans are triggered (due to being on the earthed side of the relay coil)...

If you get good results at the EEC then the wiring between the EEC and relays has breaks in it... If you get the same stupid behaviour here than is the EEC or the input sensors... seems like too many sensors misbehaving to be them... sounding more like the EEC...

If you have a spare handy give it a whirl... just make sure the key is off when you unplug it...

Keep me posted... will assist or find someone else to help where possible...

be interesting to get the car to the Ford Joint and have them put the CAM tester on it and see if it throws any codes out... Esp if you say it seems like its a bit of a lemon... might be some stuck codes causing it to misbehave or current still present codes telling it do strange s**t...

It might even throw a code saying temp sensor is out of range... maybe its lost its initial resistance values and isn't within the EEC's reading range... your new one will fix that if it is that... that'd be why it still works when there is infinite resistance (when its unplugged)...

not sure... try these... let me know how it behaves, and we'll try to sort it out a bit more hey?

try a multimeter on pin 7 (temp sensor and see what volt values you get? Match them against the table above...

any way, no more dribble... good luck...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:57 pm 
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you have been so helpful, as soon as i get some time (during this week coming) i will test some of these things ... my EL is a fairmont ghia and my other EL is a Falcon, so i may have to look out for anotger ECU to try as they are quite different from what i know (mine being the tickford edition and has the climate control etc) It seems it may also be part of the cooling system because today by tricking the fans on full it was still starting to heat up a little more than i would like (it was 36 outside tho), the only thing left in the cooling system to change is the water pump, so i may have to bite the bullet and change that too. Which it may be given that it stays cool with the car stationary but when you start to drive it heats up, the water may not be flowing fast enough, i dont really want to go for a lower temp thermostat, id rather get it to work right.

I will do some testing as you mentioned on the ECU in the next few days and change the temp sender and let you know. I really do appreciate your input very much

Many Thanks

Jamin
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:58 pm 
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The thermo's cut out above 60km/h, it is a cooling system issue if it overheats above that

 

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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:32 am 
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67RCE wrote:
The thermo's cut out above 60km/h, it is a cooling system issue if it overheats above that


are you sure ... my wifes EL falcon doesnt im sure ?? Im probably wrong.

Jamo
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:34 am 
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There is not much airflow into the fairmonts, they have a big plastic cover in front of the radiator its just the flow from underneath ... i know that in my Patrol before i replaced the viscous hub it over heated at speed, once i had changed the hub it was fine at speed, several cooling systems people had told me you woul be surprised at how much the fan actually still does at speed.
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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:56 am 
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Hi,

Sounds good... Yeah with my car at 100km/hr with the hub fan (which I'm sure isn't running at max as there is no noise from it) my car runs just into the normal range... 8 to 10mm past the start of the normal bar (1/4 of full scale...) on our hot days and our summers are 42 to 44 degree days... And I cart around a big heavy tool box most of the time... I'm an apprentice sparky and the old man is a Ford motor mechanic so I have a bit of both backgrounds and carrying tools helps so many people, (just a shame it doesn't help fuel economy)...

During normal days (mid 30's and bellow) when I'm not towing it runs right at the very start of the normal range... I have <2yr old everything though... You name it we changed it when we bought the car do to it never being run with inhibitor previously and being rusted and full of mud in the block...

That's interesting to know Brett...

You can try that Fairmont EEC the fact that its a ticky one will cause the engine to run with tickford settings, that all... Common mod for those of us without a ticky... And climate control, i think, is part of the Body Module, not the EEC... The body modules have a few different series' dependant upon your cooling, cluster, and other luxuries...

Sounds like you might have your problem... Is the water green still? (Or pink or some colour of inhibitor)?

 

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93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

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 Post subject: Re: Car Overheating - fans question
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:10 pm 
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Hey mate ... yer the coolant is still green, like i said its only weeks old as i totally flushed the cooling system when i got the car ... the guy before me left air in the system and it heated up and blew the top hose off (due to no water just air passed the sender unit i didnt know it was hot) so after that i replaced almost everything bar water pump and radiator. The radiator flows quite weel and doesnt look old so i flushed it out and whacked it back in. I have a 3 core in the ED maybe i should go that way with the EL too??

Jamin
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