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EA-D intake mainfold VS BBM 

 

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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:58 pm 
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thats the point, the bbm is good for torque, on long runners, if you think 3kw is big power your holding your c0ck too tightly. power & torque are different. thats what the l6 has above the rest, torque. the bbm produces more torque through longer runners following examples of porsche & a few other manufacturers. it's proven technology, for torque, not power. i bet you think that pod filter gained you 2.5 seconds over the 1/4 to ?

[quote]The SOLID lines are EF XR6 which clearly makes plenty more grunt (torque) lower in the dial. The dotted lines are ED XR6 which makes a fraction more power at peak, but looses out between 2 and 3 grand. [quote]

whats the difference between grunt, torque & power? is "grunt" torque or overall performance ? overall performance is the medium between power & torque, if you can't' tell the difference don't quote other peoples dyno figures. leave it for the big boys that actually do it for a living.

 

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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:01 pm 
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he states that "grunt" is torque so using a process of elimination power must be KW as that is the 2 verticle scales on the graph
but its a poor graph
i cant even see the "power"(KW) lines in that graph
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:42 pm 
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i knew the i6 was a high torque motor but thats crazy. it comes in and stays for so long

 

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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:56 pm 
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vibr8n wrote:
thats the point, the bbm is good for torque, on long runners, if you think 3kw is big power your holding your c0ck too tightly. power & torque are different. thats what the l6 has above the rest, torque. the bbm produces more torque through longer runners following examples of porsche & a few other manufacturers. it's proven technology, for torque, not power. i bet you think that pod filter gained you 2.5 seconds over the 1/4 to ?

Quote:
The SOLID lines are EF XR6 which clearly makes plenty more grunt (torque) lower in the dial. The dotted lines are ED XR6 which makes a fraction more power at peak, but looses out between 2 and 3 grand.
Quote:


whats the difference between grunt, torque & power? is "grunt" torque or overall performance ? overall performance is the medium between power & torque, if you can't' tell the difference don't quote other peoples dyno figures. leave it for the big boys that actually do it for a living.


Rrrroooowwww!!!! Saucer and milk for this bloke! :lol:

Hey, all I was doing was posting a dyno graph showing the difference between the ED (log) and EF (BBM) which, correct me if I'm wrong, was the question asked in the first place.

What is the difference between the log and the BBM? Well, here it is on paper (granted, there are other differences between the two motors, but the manifold is the most significant).

I never made any claims about pod filters providing savage performance gains, nor will I get into a torque vs power arguement.
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:01 pm 
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stockstandard wrote:

Ever looked at the BBM of a factory BA/BF turbo - you guessed it, butterflies removed.


thats because it's not economically viable to throw away a million castings that were left over from previous models.

 

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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:35 pm 
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This is a good example of the butterfly's being too late as I mentioned earlier. This dynograph is compliments of Tim Williams who is running one of our R6 cams, but just as a comparison, the std cam is the lower set of lines, and the R6 is the higher set of lines. See the dip at the 3500rpm mark which is just before the BBM switching. What we have found, and depending on the cam that the car is running of course is that opening the BBM a little earlier means that your not waiting for the absolute last drop of torque finishes before you switch over the manifold to let it breath for the top end. In Tims car, I would guess that a 3000rpm switch would eliminate this dip, and although the torque would drop marginally, the overall power would be more linear. Now keep in mind that power is a rate of torque, so effectively the area under curve would be better, resulting in a better all round performance gain throughout this mid range.

 

 

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R6 dyno Tim Williams.jpg
R6 dyno Tim Williams.jpg [ 92.86 KiB | Viewed 40 times ]

 

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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:01 pm 
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torque is power and power is torque. Though people generally affiliate bottom end as torque and top end as power, it's all the same. The only way you can increase the power of the engine at 5,000 rpm is to get the engine making more torque at 5,000rpm

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:24 pm 
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if torque & power is linear then how do you get cams like 'highway & towing'/stage 1 cams that produce more torque leaving power relatively the same ? it's not linear.

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:39 pm 
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haggis wrote:
torque is power and power is torque. Though people generally affiliate bottom end as torque and top end as power, it's all the same. The only way you can increase the power of the engine at 5,000 rpm is to get the engine making more torque at 5,000rpm


They are not the same, but they are related.

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:28 pm 
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vibr8n wrote:
if torque & power is linear then how do you get cams like 'highway & towing'/stage 1 cams that produce more torque leaving power relatively the same ? it's not linear.


Because they boost torque at lower rpm, and leave it relatively unchanged at high rpm.
You have the same 'peak power', but more bottom end power for towing.

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:43 pm 
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I currently have dual fuel but I am planning on running straight gas on my new engine ED 4.0L, is it worth considering the BBM option?

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Yep, torque cams shift the power band to lower rpm and increase the torque.

Quite easy to show how it all works with a bit of maths. Say you have an engine that makes peak power of 100rwkw @ 4000 and 300NM @ 3000. You swap it over for a torque cam that increases the engine torque by 10% but but moves the torque curve back 400rpm.

So instead of 300NM @ 3000rpm you get 330NM at 2600rpm

Now at peak power you had (100/4000*9545) or 240NM of torque, the peak with the torque cam will be approximately that torque back 400rpm and increased by 10% and recalculating power. So the new peak would be 265NM@3600rpm, and (265/9545*3600) = 99.9kw.

So before and after is
300NM@3000rpm to 330NM@2600rpm
100rwkw@4000rpm to 99.9rwkw@3600rpm

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:07 pm 
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has anyone thought the bbm might actually increase fuel consumption?

lets say little old grandma buys a bf brand new and goes to church on sunday with it. those butterflies (you'd expect) would never be activated at 3800rpm because shes not going to push it that hard.

so pritty much she's just pulling around the extra weight when they could just use the longer lenght. i know its not that simple cause you'd lose top end but an xt isn't designed really for pushing hard, more for a medium size family.

any thoughts?

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:11 pm 
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Weight of the BBM... not gonna be factor in fuel consumption on a BA!
Your talking a couple of kilos over a log manifold here, not much at all.

 

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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:18 pm 
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yeah, fair nuff. i must just drive like a grandma then

 

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