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EF Falcon AirBox Modification Help Needed :) 

 

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Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:11 am 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
I won't comment on whether the creater of this thread will benefit from a less restrictive intake. But i can say that if he wants to make it less restrictive, i reckon a BA intake is very good value for money, and addresses the entire system.

The BA filter is definitely 20 to 25% wider, and a better design with more surface area and possibly less resistance, than the e-series filters.



do you have any test data to back that up?

 

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Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:29 am 
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tickford_6 wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
I won't comment on whether the creater of this thread will benefit from a less restrictive intake. But i can say that if he wants to make it less restrictive, i reckon a BA intake is very good value for money, and addresses the entire system.

The BA filter is definitely 20 to 25% wider, and a better design with more surface area and possibly less resistance, than the e-series filters.



do you have any test data to back that up?


The stock ford intake on cars with e-series 6cyl BBM is s**t. All the bends loose air velocity and power. Run a cold air pickup from where the battery is and your promised horsepower. I already know I am loosing 5rwkw on my substandard 120 degree then a 90 degree bend intake pipe setup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:36 am 
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K & N Sell A replacement air filter for the falcons. They claim it has 'no measureable airflow loss upto 200rwkw' So one of these might be worth a try.

 

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Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:18 am 
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EL__Fairmont wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
I won't comment on whether the creater of this thread will benefit from a less restrictive intake. But i can say that if he wants to make it less restrictive, i reckon a BA intake is very good value for money, and addresses the entire system.

The BA filter is definitely 20 to 25% wider, and a better design with more surface area and possibly less resistance, than the e-series filters.



do you have any test data to back that up?


The stock ford intake on cars with e-series 6cyl BBM is s**t. All the bends loose air velocity and power. Run a cold air pickup from where the battery is and your promised horsepower. I already know I am loosing 5rwkw on my substandard 120 degree then a 90 degree bend intake pipe setup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



again test data, or just opinion?
i've temp testing and running 'cold air intake' from the battery position to the TB is a good way to have intake temp of almost 100C

not all promises are kept

 

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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:03 pm 
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tickford_6 wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
I won't comment on whether the creater of this thread will benefit from a less restrictive intake. But i can say that if he wants to make it less restrictive, i reckon a BA intake is very good value for money, and addresses the entire system.

The BA filter is definitely 20 to 25% wider, and a better design with more surface area and possibly less resistance, than the e-series filters.



do you have any test data to back that up?

Are you saying Ford designed a new higher revving and higher volumetric efficiency engine called the barra, and made a new intake to suit, that included larger ducting all the way with less tight bends and a 20 to 25% bigger airbox, that doesn't actually flow better?

 

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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:42 pm 
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Ford have a tendancy to over engineer things, so yes they did put a bigger airbox in there, but this will also coincide with the longer service intervals as well, therefore restriction will not be as much of an issue on longer service periods.

It seems all too common that when trying to modify cars, we some times focus on the wrong area, and every body does it at some time or another. Simply changing the airbox is not going to turn your car in to a fire breathing V8 supercar, you probably wont even see the difference on the dyno, so it might just be wise to leave that mod till later when you actually do need it.

 

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Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:43 pm 
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My argument is that if you are going to do anything, you would do well to go out and buy yourself a BA intake. It's cheap yet very good. I can't see any alternatives stacking up.

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:16 am 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
My argument is that if you are going to do anything, you would do well to go out and buy yourself a BA intake. It's cheap yet very good. I can't see any alternatives stacking up.


Your very right, but why change it when I doubt that the motor of discussion is exceeding the capabilities of the standard airbox? Spend or put the the money towards something else that will make a difference. Im sceptical that it would even make a measurable difference on my 180 odd RWKW 5ltr with the airbox change.

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:15 am 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
I won't comment on whether the creater of this thread will benefit from a less restrictive intake. But i can say that if he wants to make it less restrictive, i reckon a BA intake is very good value for money, and addresses the entire system.

The BA filter is definitely 20 to 25% wider, and a better design with more surface area and possibly less resistance, than the e-series filters.



do you have any test data to back that up?

Are you saying Ford designed a new higher revving and higher volumetric efficiency engine called the barra, and made a new intake to suit, that included larger ducting all the way with less tight bends and a 20 to 25% bigger airbox, that doesn't actually flow better?


NO

I'm asking you IF you have any data at all , that shows changing to a BA air box actually makes a difference.
or are you using the BIGGER IS BETTER theory?

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:43 am 
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Well now. I couldn't put a pipe in my FOG LIGHT HOLE - As I have cornering lamps in there.

I do use a BA pipe straight to a pod filter where the airbox used to be.

I then have a big hole cut out of the bonnet lining where the little blockage otherwise known as a snorkel used to be.

I direct nice cold air from the front grill directly to the pod filter with my patented "Cold Air Deflection" (CAD) mechanism.

This is SEALED to the bonnet lid and also has a seal from the wheel arch to the front headlight - thus creating an open air box that the pod sits in quite nicely. I get a lot of cool air into it - and NO NEED for a pipe and chopping guards etc etc etc...


Image

For a bit of a flow diagram try looking through pages 2 onwards of the budget (NOVICE) build thread.

This system I came up with works pretty well.... I did notice improvements in the power delivery straight away.

Have since put a real free flowing set of extractors on which is now heating up the engine bay a lot more than old standard system - So so so glad to have ditched the huge EF intake plastic above the rocker cover and put the BA one on! Even that gets hot...

COLD AIR is my friend. I've got to work on chopping holes in bonnet appropriately now.

Keep the photos coming of how you're progressing...

Last edited by fiend on Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:32 am 
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tickford_6 wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
I won't comment on whether the creater of this thread will benefit from a less restrictive intake. But i can say that if he wants to make it less restrictive, i reckon a BA intake is very good value for money, and addresses the entire system.

The BA filter is definitely 20 to 25% wider, and a better design with more surface area and possibly less resistance, than the e-series filters.



do you have any test data to back that up?

Are you saying Ford designed a new higher revving and higher volumetric efficiency engine called the barra, and made a new intake to suit, that included larger ducting all the way with less tight bends and a 20 to 25% bigger airbox, that doesn't actually flow better?


NO

I'm asking you IF you have any data at all , that shows changing to a BA air box actually makes a difference.
or are you using the BIGGER IS BETTER theory?

The originator of the thread was looking to reduce air resistance in his intake, and i responded to that.

I don't subscribe to an absolutist theme of "bigger is better", because, to give one example, if the piping was made say 3 feet in diameter, it would be similar to no piping at all, and i don't think that is best for many motors driving in ordinary conditions.

I haven't particularly delved into this area, but my thinking is that longer piping creates a more constant air velocity in the piping, which can create a positive air pressure at the intake port when it opens, creating better cylinder filling. It's something that needs to be tuned though because as the tubing gets longer there is also more air resistance. There would be a theoretical optimum point where maximum cylinder filling occurs, but then again, at what engine rpm? That also needs to be decided and an appropriate compromise reached.

That being said there is no benefit in the air resistance caused by the air filter, so the less resistance there the better, as long as proper filtration is obtained. A bigger filter is hence all good, such as the BA filter.

Another thing worth mentioning is that tight bends also confer no advantage, so smooth bends like those on the BA crosspipe are all good.

Also, since the snorkel is before the filter, it possibly plays little to no role in creating air velocity and cylinder filling with respect to the engines suck effect, so creating positive pressure through placement say at the front of the car is good, and if a bigger diameter snorkel helps there then that is all good too.

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:36 pm 
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relaxed_fella wrote:
tickford wrote:
yawning_diplomacy wrote:
tickford_69 wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy_just_wish_george_bush_was_too wrote:
I won't comment on whether the creater of this thread will benefit from a less restrictive intake. But i can ...The BA filter is definitely 20 to 25% wider, and a better design with more surface area and possibly less resistance, than the e-series filters.

FIEND, ME wrote:
Damn right there... BY THE WAY - What's the opposite of a turbo called?

(pause for dramatic effect)

AN EL INDUCTION.

hahaahahahahsahahahahhaah chortle... I made that one up myself!


do you have any test data to back that up?

Are you saying Ford designed a new higher revving and higher volumetric efficiency engine c...and made a new intake to suit, that included larger ducting...that doesn't actually flow better?

FIEND, ME wrote:
No, surely he isn't saying that. That would be silly.
NO
FIEND, ME wrote:
Told you so...
I'm asking you IF you have any data at all , that sho... using the BIGGER IS BETTER theory?

The originator of the thread was looking to reduce air resistance in his intake, and i responded to that.

I don't subscribe to an absolutist theme of "bigger is better", because, to give one example, if the piping was made say 3 feet in diameter, it would be similar to no piping at all, and i don't think that is best for many motors driving in ordinary conditions.
Good point, good point indeed... I think this leads nicely to another idea I had... Putting corrugations and deflectors inside the pipe to rifle the air and produce a less disturbed even flow through the throttle.

I haven't particularly delved into this area, but my thinking is that longer piping creates a more constant air velocity .....t what engine rpm? That also needs to be decided and an appropriate compromise reached.
Ahhhhhhh...
That being said there is no benefit in the air resistance caused by the air filter, so the less resistance there the better, as long as proper filtration is obtained. A bigger filter is hence all good, such as the BA filter.
Ahhhhhhh... Maybe even a pod of suitable quality... As an example, I can actually hear my pod sucking and the air having a bit of a hard time getting through it... Which isn't to say it works better with no pod on it at all - the restriction from the pod is minimal enough not to effect the air flow to an extent that is decremental to the induction. I know this as running the car with no piping at all (just a throttle body) made very little difference... I have tried with a bit of piping, all the piping, no piping. No filter, filter straight onto throttle etc etc etc. About the best was actually the pod filter straight onto the throttle via a 12" straight pipe (marley roofing downpipe PVC) in my humble non scientific approach ---- PUT FOOT DOWN HARD UP HILL IN SECOND GEAR AND FEEL WHAT HAPPENS. Suggest using the same hill and keeping all variables as similar as possible, other than changing the positioning of pod...
Another thing worth mentioning is that tight bends also confer no advantage, so smooth bends like those on the BA crosspipe are all good.
Did I tell you the one about what the opposite to a turbo is?

FIEND, ME wrote:
Try explaining the EL 90 degree bend right into the throttle... Remember the EL came out after the EF, so it should be better. It sure isn't.

WHAT DO YOU CALL THE OPPOSITE OF A TURBO?

[pause for effect]

AN EL INTAKE

Bwahhhaahahahahaaha... I made that one up myself....


Also, since the snorkel is before the filter, it possibly plays little to no role in creating air velocity and cylinder filling with respect to the engines suck effect, so creating positive pressure through placement say at the front of the car is good, and if a bigger diameter snorkel helps there then that is all good too.

Ahhhhhhh... Sheez, I was totally agreeing with you there Relaxed fella, and then you go and say the snorkel has virtually no impact. Ah my goodness... It makes virtually no impact if you block the whole snorkel!!! At least- on my original EF there was enough air getting in elsewhere... You could honestly block two thirds of the snorkel and it would make no difference at low revs. You could take the snorkel off entirely and it would improve things - although getting air straight from the radiator is a dumb idea obviously.

I didn't ever try a whole BA airbox etc etc but imagine the snorkel to be restrictive. As an expirement (anyone who has a snorkel still) you could try blocking and totally removing the snorkel while car is parked and you can pull on the throttle cables to rev it whilst your head is under there. You can hear the air sucking and straining to get through the original (non Tickford) snorkel... Before I get a bunch of hate mail, I use a similar argument to you --- WHY WOULD THE HIGHER PERFORMANCE TICKFORD SYSTEM HAVE A BIGGER SNORKEL IF IT WASN'T RESTRICTIVE?

Gawd knows these cars puff a bit of smoke when chopping down a gear and flooring it. In my theories - if you had a perfect air supply, you should be able to idle along and then floor it and the air supply should be such that no tell-tale sign should occur.

Of course, the idea that the puff of smoke is caused by a momentary lack of air as the engine struggles to get enough air into the cylinders could be missguided. Any other ideas?

There also appeared to be VERY little effect on the placement of the snorkel regarding your positive air pressure comments... The air required by the engine far exceeds any difference the air pressure at the snorkel intake actually provided. Part of the reason for this is that to even get to the snorkel the air has been deflected and squeezed through small gaps around the lights and bonnet latch.

The seal around the bonnet lining is good and most of the EF and EL's have no breathable grill. Therefore the only way for air to get in is above headlights and in the gap between bumper and bonnet. On the Fairmont EF / EL the bonnet actually seals to the bumper too!

Therefore, all this combined meant that the motor basically was pulling the air into the snorkel. The snorkel sat at the end of about 5 foot of various types of ducting (pipe - connectors - pipe - connectors - 2" pipe in centre of air box - filter - and gawd knows how small the restrictive snorkel is, but I'd say it's about equal or less than a 1.5" round pipe also.) The motor then has to move ALL THIS AIR --- Quick calculation suggests 3 or more litres of air must be moved before new air starts entering the snorkel. Until this time the engine is sucking the old air that was inducted quietly at low revs, meaning the air is at a low pressure when entering the combustion chamber --- which means...

PUFF OF SMOKE ANYONE?


By reducing the restrictions I hoped to provide an easier path for the engine to get air real quick whenever it wanted it. It seems to work, other than I have an expandable bit of plastic ducting from the pod to the plastic BA piping that I feel is disturbing the air - although it does make a rather pleasing low down rumble noise as engine increases in RPM I'm going to put a straight pipe on... If I can hear the air, then that is wasted energy that the motor could actually be using to force the gearbox shaft in circles.


---=== DIscLAIMer ===---
Although all care taken with content of above post...
If it offends, fails to make sense, or is otherwise classified as complete garbage, I will simply remind you all that I am a novice with no scientific, mechanical or social training.


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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:55 pm 
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fiend wrote:
Well now. I couldn't put a pipe in my FOG LIGHT HOLE - As I have cornering lamps in there.

I do use a BA pipe straight to a pod filter where the airbox used to be.

I then have a big hole cut out of the bonnet lining where the little blockage otherwise known as a snorkel used to be.

I direct nice cold air from the front grill directly to the pod filter with my patented "Cold Air Deflection" (CAD) mechanism.

This is SEALED to the bonnet lid and also has a seal from the wheel arch to the front headlight - thus creating an open air box that the pod sits in quite nicely. I get a lot of cool air into it - and NO NEED for a pipe and chopping guards etc etc etc...


Image

For a bit of a flow diagram try looking through pages 2 onwards of the budget (NOVICE) build thread.

This system I came up with works pretty well.... I did notice improvements in the power delivery straight away.

Have since put a real free flowing set of extractors on which is now heating up the engine bay a lot more than old standard system - So so so glad to have ditched the huge EF intake plastic above the rocker cover and put the BA one on! Even that gets hot...

COLD AIR is my friend. I've got to work on chopping holes in bonnet appropriately now.

Keep the photos coming of how you're progressing...


that is a really good attempt at doing things yourself rather than just copying what has already been done...

and the graphic is absolutely amazing

do you have a webpage that shows your other art work?

10/10

 

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Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:36 am 
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snorkel's don't do much, the stock I6 snorkel was standard on the V8 ghia's. The biggest gain is too replace the restrictive factory intake piping and the inlet diameter hole into the airbox lid.

 

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Exhaust: Pacemaker's, 2.5" exhaust and Hiflow cat
Intake: FRAM AIRHOG , EL GT snorkel
XR6 300kpa fuel reg Stg 2 Auto Shift Kit.6DJA ECU
PM in Qld looking too buy Toyota 4*4 SR5 Dualcab Hilux 91-97 with 2.8l diesel engine/5spd manual

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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:17 pm 
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Unfortunately i didn't do back-to-back testing, but to the best of my ability to make an assessment a few days apart, i was bloody impressed by my car's top end when the snorkel was not there, and now with it on i am leaning towards thinking it has improved the bottom end and reduced the top end. But i don't trust this thinking yet.

 

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