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EL Base timing problems 

 

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 Post subject: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:15 pm 
Parts Gopher
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Wondering if anyone here has any ideas why the base timing in my EL won't stay set. Ever since I replaced the distributor with a new aftermarket one I have had to set the base timing 3 times. The car will start to lose power and when I check the base timing it is out. The timing chain guides and tensioner were replaced bout 7 months ago when I recondition the head. Only recent thing was the distributor failure bout a month ago. Up till then ran great, just oneday refused to start. New distributor fixed that. Thx for reading.
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:21 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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you need to wait approx 2min after you put the car in diagnostic mode(short far left, top/bottom pins on diagnostic plug under fuse panel). Start the engine, revs should rise and fall. NOW WAIT 2mins until the engine stumbles at idle and nearly stalls. Now you can set the base ign timing within 2mins, once set-switch engine off and remove pins.

cheers and have a nice day.................

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:27 pm 
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Done all that I'm afraid! 3 times now. I've gotten to be quite the expert in setting the base timing on this car! Today timing shifted that far the engine wouldn't crank over properly, so just to be sure I took rocker cover off and chechecked cam timing. Pity can't check aux shaft timing that easy
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:04 am 
Getting Side Ways
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hey, welcome to the site.

going to take a strange stab at it and say the ecu could actually be a fault as thats what sends the signal to advance. or the TFI could be rooted if you havent replaced it.

other than that, check the aux shaft. there shouldnt be any reason for the timing to go out like that!

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:01 am 
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This may be stupid...but did you put the retaining bracket back on the right way making sure the prongs actually sit in the right position to hold the distributor down properly? Also is the distributor ALL the way down. As in the base of the distributor touching the block. Check if there isn't any dirt or grime between the block and distributor base that might be jammed in between causing it to shift over time.

Also...is the balancer slipping?

phong =P~

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:19 am 
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Thanks for the replies. I am leaning towards the ecu at the moment. Just that I have never seen anything like this before! Yesterday could only just manage a idle, any thing more and it would stall. All the ignition system right down to the leads are new parts, due to last owners mechanical efforts. With a timing light on it last nite, without the pins shorted this time, the timing was at tdc then. which definitely wasn't where I'd set it. Couldn't see it with pins shorted as the engine refused to go that far without stalling. Plus by the way it was cranking over trying to start is was obvious the timing was way out.
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:51 am 
Getting Side Ways
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i would first pull the rocker cover off to check the timing marks are in the correct place,spun balancers are a common problem.
u cant check the timing with a light until u short the two lh pins under the dash, wont give u a correct reading.
the other thing it may be worth looking at if u think the timing is moving is the dizzy drive gear, there is a pin through the dizzy gear to the dizzy shaft and if its backfired maybe has sheared that pin causing it to move the timing
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:01 pm 
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I'd say the dizzy isn't sitting all the way down as Phong has suggested.

Or you have bent and put a crack in the retaining bracket (been done before) that is not putting enough pressure on the base of the dizzy to hold it in place.

Everytime you adjust it, are you physically moving the thing back to the place where you last set it?
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Looks like a worn aux shaft. Not something I've seen before, but all things point to it. Replaced distibutor, ecu, checked tensioner, camshaft timing etc. This time timing shift is alot worse, which has made it easier in a way. Engine now hunts at idle on lpg and petrol, while timing mark on balancer moves in unison. Bout 5 sec in one position, then bout the same 7 deg over to towards tdc. Even during the 5 or so seconds of relatively steady idle the timing mark is never completely stable. So looks like I this time I got it! Thanks for the ideas tho, helped me look in right places
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:35 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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MickEBS wrote:
Looks like a worn aux shaft. Not something I've seen before, but all things point to it. Replaced distibutor, ecu, checked tensioner, camshaft timing etc. This time timing shift is alot worse, which has made it easier in a way. Engine now hunts at idle on lpg and petrol, while timing mark on balancer moves in unison. Bout 5 sec in one position, then bout the same 7 deg over to towards tdc. Even during the 5 or so seconds of relatively steady idle the timing mark is never completely stable. So looks like I this time I got it! Thanks for the ideas tho, helped me look in right places


Have you pulled the dizzy out and checked too see if the drive cog is missing teeth or put a torch down the hole to see if the aux shaft is stuffed. Expensive and destructive lesson too learn if you have caused the problem though, when you fitted the new dizzy!!!!

I replaced the complete dizzy in my old EA when I converted it to multi-point injection and never had any problems(just used the gregory's manual), so you must have stuffed up somewhere?

 

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97 EL Fairmont 4l OHC .Silver.
Exhaust: Pacemaker's, 2.5" exhaust and Hiflow cat
Intake: FRAM AIRHOG , EL GT snorkel
XR6 300kpa fuel reg Stg 2 Auto Shift Kit.6DJA ECU
PM in Qld looking too buy Toyota 4*4 SR5 Dualcab Hilux 91-97 with 2.8l diesel engine/5spd manual

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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:46 pm 
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The aftermarket dizzy I bought for it was replaced with a known good second hand one. The gear on the aux shaft is worn to the touch, but without having a good look with timing cover off I can't be 100 % sure. The old dizzy died due to the shaft bushes wearing and the vane damaged the hall effect device. I bought this car as a non runner bout 8 months ago and have little idea of its history, except that there was issues with ignition system from day one. lpg backfies etc. I just put it down to the previous owner not setting timing correctly as I set it and have had 8 reliable months out of it. till bout 3 weeks ago when original dizzy gave up the ghost. Maybe coz the new dizzys shaft bushes wasn't worn like the other one it's made the aux shaft probs more apparent.
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:39 pm 
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Was the dizzy one of those $35 ebay ones? I'm a bit worried because I just fitted one of those, and have read of a couple of cases on this forum of the aux shaft gear failing after fitting a new dizzy. OTOH, plenty of people don't have a problem. Perhaps the worn bushes in the old dizzy cause missalignment and funny wear patterns which are incompatable with the new gear?
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:49 pm 
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i had the aux shaft do this last year, and in my opinion it was the cheap s**t aftermarket dizzy that did it.
so i ended up just replacing the engine and brought a new genuine dizzy and so far so good..fingers crossed lol....
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:33 pm 
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The dizzy I bought is a brand I have used several times in the past with no problems. The package comes completele down to the coil even for bout $160 trade. Having said that it won't be going back in tho, as I tend to think it made what was already probably failing fail alot quicker. Measurements from the base of the dizzy where it goes against the block to the top of the cog show a difference of bout 2mm more on the aftermarket dizzy. If this matters I will discuss with my engineer, or maybe someone here could shed light on it. But I think I will stay with a genuine dizzy next time! What are my chances of a new aux shaft fixing it, or is my block like I tend to think it is a write off? Barr getting a bush or bearing made up for it of course.
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 Post subject: Re: EL Base timing problems
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:01 pm 
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if its just the gear of the shaft thats dammaged? the block should be ok..
but the thing thats not good is the fine metal that has circulated through the oil pump,bearings ect.

i replaced my engine because at the time i did not know what the problem was untill i pulled the engine apart..
but the when the engine was pulled apart to be rebuilt there was alot of grooves in the bearings from the metel floating around.
i guess you could just replace the aux shaft and the engine will probably still last a couple of years but might die a bit earlier due to metal being pumped through the engine...
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