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EL not starting got me stumped ! 

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:10 am 
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The reason we are making references to the fuel pump is because (and I'll spell it out again) the ECU will not run the pump when starting the car UNLESS it sees a trigger from the dizzy.

So simply, if you are cranking the car over and you can hear the pump, then chances are the hall effrect is OK and sending a signal to the ECU. This could mean there is a problem with the TFI, coil or coil lead. It's just narrowing it down.

Which means that if you cant hear the pump go when the car is cranking, its not getting a signal from the dizzy, therefore the hall effect or TFI is rooted.

Since ghia97 doesn't seem to have the tools or knowhow on how to pull and disassemble a few things, sound and touch is the only way to pin point.

When you first turn the car from off to accessories, the pump will run for 2 sec. This is the same on every EFI falcon from XF to FG. All its telling you is the pump is working, nothing more.

This is why I said ghia97 is not reading the posts and answering the questions. I pointed this out earlier on to help troubleshoot, but it seems to have been glossed over.

This is also how I check a dizzy is working. Plug the TFI into the loom, ground the body and just turn the rotor by hand. If its working find you'll hear the pump work and the injectors fire.
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:16 am 
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I understand all of that, but the fact remains that at this stage there is still no spark, that fault needs to be rectified before going further. Cheers Shaun.
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:27 am 
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If the TFI fails it is possible for the PIP signal to still make it to the ECU and supply the engine with fuel. if the Hall sensor fails, there is no signal to the ECU or to the TFI and therefore there will be no fuel and no spark.

So basically....
If TFI fails = no spark, maybe fuel
If Hall fails = no spark or fuel

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:27 pm 
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Thanks for the help guys, I did read over everything written i was just responding to the previous posts. Im not looking for a fuel pump prob, I know spark is the issue as mentioned earlier, It was just to rule out the hall effect sensor. I am going to try a new coil lead, and if no joy im going to try another ECU relay. Failing that it really only leaves the main ECU? Does anyone know what the little cable that grounds to the coil is? That is the only thing i didnt change yet. Cheers
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Have you replaced the Hall sensor inside the dizzy yet?
If not you are running yourself around in circles.
If the fuel pump is not running while the engine is cranking, then the hall sensor is stuffed which will stop spark as well.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Sumosan wrote:
I understand all of that, but the fact remains that at this stage there is still no spark, that fault needs to be rectified before going further. Cheers Shaun.


Thats kind of a no derr...

What we are trying to do is pinpoint the cause of the no spark by troubleshooting and questions, rather than just say "replace the entire ignition system and hopefully it will be ok".

And I wouldn't touch an aftermarket dizzy for these engines... If you do a search, they are more trouble than they are worth. Original Bosch all the way!
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 pm 
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arm79 wrote:
Original Bosch all the way!

I can vouch for this. I bought an aftermarket one from ebay for $60 and it lasted about 6 months.
Now I've bought an original Bosch and no problems.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Whats kind of a no brainiac, I am a qualified motor mechanic with 30 years experience & can tell you what I describe here has been accepted workshop procedure for 20 years, not to mention the 5-6 years I have piloted an RACV beakdown van. The problem here is everybody trying to prove how much of a fathead they are with technical specs on fuel systems etc. you would do well to follow the KISS principal (keep it simple stupid). The fuel system, requires information from the ignition to operate correctly, you know there is no spark & yet still go on with all this other rubbish to confuse the bloke. Spark, fuel, compression, its been the same since the start of things & I don't care how many electrical add ons are involved the basic principals are still the same. Replace the whole ignition you say, well thats whats been going on for years but before the distributor was replaced with the Bosch unit costing hundreds of dollars, when the cheapo one will at least get the car going & solve the problem. So what are your qualifications for handing out advice ? fully qualified with a PS3 or an X box ? The reason the whole distributor is changed is so that if the fault is the hall effect sensor it is replaced at the same time as the module (just in case) my final point is this, Bursons are'nt in the habit of supplying dodgy components, they know they will have to replace under warranty, which is why I suggested Bursons rather than ebay, but maybe your research into the subject has been more comprehensive than what Bursons have done (yeah right) Gr8 advice guys why not tell him that only original parts form a Ford dealer are good enough & we could probably get the bill over a thousand, what I've suggested here would come in under $200. And btw Ford dealers use these distributors as a cost effective alternative for their customers instaed of the original. In future I will just sit back & watch the blind lead the blind, its much more enteraining, & less frustrating & I don't get slagged off at by know nothing know alls. Cheers Shaun.
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:28 pm 
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lol... I bow to your knowledge and experience...

But I do find it funny that accepted workshop procedure is to assume the fault (no spark, its the dizzy and coil, lets just replace) and charge money.

Tell me, with all your experience, how can you pinpoint exactly what is wrong without causing the bloke to spend $100 or $200 on a new dizzy... What we are suggesting is a way to truely ID the cause of the fault at zero cost... For all we know, and you f**k know, its a $7 coil lead at fault. Yet you have just said spend $100, and hope for the best.

Just using the theory I suggested (which is quite simple and straight forward, not confusing, most other members here understand it) I've helped a number of friends and memebers pin point the exact fault (dizzy, coil or leads) at zero cost. Its called logic, not just fixing via a bulldozer. We all know there is no spark, no derr really. But there are 5 components on a EFI 4L that assist in making spark. You haven't suggested a way of pointing to which component is at fault, just change em all.

As I said, so a search on how many faults people have with these cheapie aftermarket dizzys.. On here, on boosted falcon and aff. Sheared gears, dodgy TFI's, they dont last more than a year.

So yes... Well done.. Lets spend $100 per year on a cheap s**t dizzy, because thats all they tend to last, or $200 on an original Bosch one (which I used to buy from Bursons for $145 each) which will last 10 years..

I appreciate you have worked in the industry a long time. But working for RACV doesnt impress me. I dont have a membership for a reason, most of them are contracted tools who work like taxi drivers. And mechanics in general tend to let me down. You sound like you've done some time at a Ford dealership... Please don't get me started on them and how "useful" they are.

Cheers and have a good evening.
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:55 pm 
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forgive me if ive miss red but have you pulled of the coill lead and cranked it and see if thers a spark?
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:16 pm 
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With all that rhetoric, & not one shred of proof you know what your talking about, I love people like you who sit in judgement of mechanics with absolutely no qualifications to base that judgement on. And you can crap on all you like about aftermarket distributors, but the fact remains that if Bursons were'nt confident with them they would'nt sell them. And what is your claim to fame mate ? school teacher, council worker ? Should go work in Broadmeadows with all the other factory workers, who know how to build Fords better than the Engineers, they're everywhere in Geelong too. But if you truly can fix all these things at no cost, sorry zero cost then why don't you have your own workshop, you'll make a killing not having to pay for parts, & it will all be gravy for you. & as an aside, I don't give a s**t whether your impressed or not. & are you serious with the coil lead bit? you think this bloke is that challenged he would'nt see a broken or unplugged coil lead ?. Anyway time to waste no more on this s**t, like I said before people trying to impress with knowledge of tech specs intead of getting the problem solved. So put up, or shutup time. What do you do for a crust ?. ( I'm backing school teacher). I'll bet most of your sentences in conversation start with "my mate said". Cheers Shaun.
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:28 pm 
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are you talking to me, because i am a machenic
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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:43 pm 
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ghia97 wrote:
Thanks for the help guys, I did read over everything written i was just responding to the previous posts. Im not looking for a fuel pump prob, I know spark is the issue as mentioned earlier, It was just to rule out the hall effect sensor. I am going to try a new coil lead, and if no joy im going to try another ECU relay. Failing that it really only leaves the main ECU? Does anyone know what the little cable that grounds to the coil is? That is the only thing i didnt change yet. Cheers


If the coil lead tests ok, then try below:::


I would suggest go to the wreckers and get a 2nd bosch dizzy out of a mpi falcon cost($20-$40)-just check the cog teeth for wear and shaft bush play. Then buy a gregory's manual for $35. Then you will have all the info required to fit the dizzy etc, and your car should start..............

note: If even says in the manual that a shagged TFI module can cause hall effect sensor to fail at the same time or a couple of weeks later so both should be replaced.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:50 pm 
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Sumosan wrote:
Whats kind of a no brainiac, I am a qualified motor mechanic with 30 years experience & can tell you what I describe here has been accepted workshop procedure for 20 years, not to mention the 5-6 years I have piloted an RACV beakdown van. The problem here is everybody trying to prove how much of a fathead they are with technical specs on fuel systems etc. you would do well to follow the KISS principal (keep it simple stupid). The fuel system, requires information from the ignition to operate correctly, you know there is no spark & yet still go on with all this other rubbish to confuse the bloke. Spark, fuel, compression, its been the same since the start of things & I don't care how many electrical add ons are involved the basic principals are still the same. Replace the whole ignition you say, well thats whats been going on for years but before the distributor was replaced with the Bosch unit costing hundreds of dollars, when the cheapo one will at least get the car going & solve the problem. So what are your qualifications for handing out advice ? fully qualified with a PS3 or an X box ? The reason the whole distributor is changed is so that if the fault is the hall effect sensor it is replaced at the same time as the module (just in case) my final point is this, Bursons are'nt in the habit of supplying dodgy components, they know they will have to replace under warranty, which is why I suggested Bursons rather than ebay, but maybe your research into the subject has been more comprehensive than what Bursons have done (yeah right) Gr8 advice guys why not tell him that only original parts form a Ford dealer are good enough & we could probably get the bill over a thousand, what I've suggested here would come in under $200. And btw Ford dealers use these distributors as a cost effective alternative for their customers instaed of the original. In future I will just sit back & watch the blind lead the blind, its much more enteraining, & less frustrating & I don't get slagged off at by know nothing know alls. Cheers Shaun.


You should do yourself a favour and read the original post properly. You would see that he has replaced all the parts you want him to replace again, and yet the one part that he has not replaced yet is the entire distributor, which contains what? That's right, the Hall sensor.

Want to get into stereotypes? Typical mechanic, doesnt believe that anyone other than himself knows what is wrong with their car. It's entirely impossible that a customer might know a little something about what is going on. **EDIT** I just want to make it known that this is not my personal feelings. The comment is supposed to read as though Joe Public is making it. (Though you cant argue there are plenty out there that do fit the stereotype.) **EDIT**

See if you can guess what I do for a living.





ghia97 wrote:
Hi All, Ive got an EL that refuses to start. It was fine and one day just wouldn`t start. It cranks fine, good battery etc.

I can hear the fuel pump whirr when ignition is switched, Smartlock works fine so BEM ruled out, Changed the coil twice, changed the module on the side of the dizzy and it still wont spark.

Rotor and cap in good order as is ECU relay.

All fuses have been checked inside and outside the car and all are fine. All leads are less than 20K old.

All cables secured and in good condition. What is the little cable that is earthed with the coil? That is the only thing i didnt change yet.

Do dizzys just die internally?

Any suggestions appreciated

 

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Last edited by MAD on Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EL not starting got me stumped !
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:03 pm 
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fairmont54 wrote:
are you talking to me, because i am a machenic


Nah... He's talking to me.. 5 posts here and we seem to have hit it off famously. :lol:

In reply to Shaun...

No, I work in IT. Although I am mostly a trainer, so I do make it a priority to know the ins and out of things.

Qualifications on cars.. None.. Apart from 10 years working primarily on e-series stuff. Doing the things and fixing the things that mechanics said cant really be done. I know them backwards and inside and out, thats all really..

I never said I could fix it for free... Diagnosing the problem for least cost is what I was suggesting.. Not just going whole hog and replacing everything, like you seem to be in favor of... Kinda reeks of a dealership mechanics to me.

Obviously your reading and comprehension skills are up there with your grammar skills.

I do bow to your skills of being able to tell if a coil lead is dead on sight tho... Just because its not damaged externally, doesnt mean its broken inside, or the end clip has moved away from the conductor, etc, etc. I've seen both before, maybe you never have.

I'll leave you now to believe what you want to believe... You obviously have an issue with me questioning your logic, which is fair enough... If you want to chat about it more, have a look in the cruise section.. You'll know where to find me. :D
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