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Extractors, how I over estimated myself 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:53 am 
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I remember the first time i had to fit some pacies was when i was an apprentice diesel mech at tafe, i asked the teacher if i could fit my new pacies to my XF as i had some spare time up my sleeve.

So he says yeah np but i want you to only use an oxy to weld the exhaust. Well wow what an effort but i done it, with an oxy and dipping wire, i had to say it come up trumps. Didn't look too bad for a 2nd yr apprentice job.

Just remember there is always more than 1 way to skin a cat. Just getting it to shut up is the problem :lol:

Joel

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:25 pm 
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phongus wrote:
Just clean the welds up with a file, some sand paper and make it smooth ;). How else would you hide a bad job?


Sikaflex followed by paint..... I've seen it done, just not exhausts hehe. It's the only way to hide bird shyte.

Some people make it sound impossible lol. If you're patient, have some degree of common knowledge of mechanics & physics and you will be fine.Welding experience is a bonus. I'm a boily by trade and I think anyone can weld, it just takes a really good one to do it perfectly, which isn't always necessary.

I'll also add that once upon a time I never had much respect for exhaust fitters, glorified pipe monkeys...
I've now made 3-4 exhausts and I can say it hasn't gotten any easier. I can tig up hundreds of meters of steam pipe around mills but i'll be F**k if I can figure out what's so hard about 3-4 meters of exhaust, but it is.

There is a few things to think bout:
- Position: Most extractors I've used have been far off the original exhaust route
- Clearance again: The closer the cat to the floor = more heat bleed into floor
- Tension: Be sure the system isn't under any tension and is 'free hanging' with engine off
- Clearance under load: Be sure to pay attention to direction of movement under load
- Flange - I can buy flanges from my local exhaust shop for $5 each, they have a pre-machined sealing face and come in a variety of sizes. Much much MUCH easier and more reliable than making you're own. Also I use 3 bolt when possible, they last 3 times longer than 2 bolt arrangements in my experience, particularly at the real hot end.

Then post some pics to get other people keen to have a go!

 

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Last edited by low_ryda on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:30 pm 
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kickn_it wrote:
I remember the first time i had to fit some pacies was when i was an apprentice diesel mech at tafe, i asked the teacher if i could fit my new pacies to my XF as i had some spare time up my sleeve.

So he says yeah np but i want you to only use an oxy to weld the exhaust. Well wow what an effort but i done it, with an oxy and dipping wire, i had to say it come up trumps. Didn't look too bad for a 2nd yr apprentice job.

Just remember there is always more than 1 way to skin a cat. Just getting it to shut up is the problem :lol:

Joel

oxy welding is fun, loved doing it when i was at tafe :twisted:

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:44 am 
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You's think you's got it hard.....try making headers from scratch, and you can't buy them, they have to be made.....they are for a 5.4 260 Boss V8 in an early made ( 1986 ) Cobra kit car chassis.
I started with the hardest one, got to dodge the chassis and the steering shaft.
The exhaust ports are a laid over rectangle with rounded corners.....using 1 & 3/4" tube.
I've got one shaped....7 to go...... :(

 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:56 am 
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ILLaViTaRI wrote:
agree, should be more like $80 fitted, an hours labour if that, no parts required. It's amazing how much mechanics charge for tasks so simple. Maybe fit it all up then just get them to weld it? I wouldn't pay more than $80 unfitted just for a simple weld. Doubt you'd get a good weld DIY.

What's amazing is people like you, who have not the slightest clue about the costs involved in running a working shop, seem to think you knowwhat should be charged.

Just remember in order to do it that fast, the car is put on a $7000-$10 000 car hoist and a $1000+ welder is used that also needs welding wire and sheilding gas.
Staff need to be paid+super
The acounting program that your invoice comes from is an initial purchace of about $1500 plus about$500p/y to keep up to date.
The hand and air tools used are not free and do not last forever.
The fact we deal with cars means we are inspected by the EPA twice a year at over $1000
I havn't even scratched the surface of the costs yet and it already shows you "should be more like $80" to be not enough.

You would last about a month in this trade.

 

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Last edited by tickford_6 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:39 am 
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tickford_6 wrote:
[quote="ILLaViTaRI agree, should be more like $80 fitted, an hours labour if that, no parts required. It's amazing how much mechanics charge for tasks so simple. Maybe fit it all up then just get them to weld it? I wouldn't pay more than $80 unfitted just for a simple weld. Doubt you'd get a good weld DIY.

What's amazing is people like you, who have not the slightest clue about the costs involved in running a working shop, seem to think you knowwhat should be charged.

Just remember in order to do it that fast, the car is put on a $7000-$10 000 car hoist and a $1000+ welder is used that also needs welding wire and sheilding gas.
Staff need to be paid+super
The acounting program that your invoice comes from is an initial purchace of about $1500 plus about$500p/y to keep up to date.
The hand and air tools used are not free and do not last forever.
The fact we deal with cars means we are inspected by the EPA twice a year at over $1000
I havn't even scratched the surface of the costs yet and it already shows you "should be more like $80" to be not enough.

You would last about a month in this trade.[/quote]
the only way i know of getting any exhaust stuff done cheaply is if its pre-fabbed to be fitted to your car and mass produced, and no labour is involved in fitting(bolting it straight on yourself) or if you always go to a small company with only 1 or 2 people that work there, never ask for a recipt(because you know that if you have a problem they will still fix it for you, or there will be no problem with the product)
and when they arent busy, they will knock 20 bucks or so off the price, other than that, you have to pay for all of the above.

also shop around, i call 3 different exhaust places, i find that if the bigger company(carline) are cheaper than the smaller company, if you tell the smaller company what carline would charge they will knock a few bucks off the price for the job, and i always give them the work provided they are offering good quality work, or a good price,

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:06 pm 
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tickford_6 wrote:
ILLaViTaRI wrote:
agree, should be more like $80 fitted, an hours labour if that, no parts required. It's amazing how much mechanics charge for tasks so simple. Maybe fit it all up then just get them to weld it? I wouldn't pay more than $80 unfitted just for a simple weld. Doubt you'd get a good weld DIY.

What's amazing is people like you, who have not the slightest clue about the costs involved in running a working shop, seem to think you knowwhat should be charged.

Just remember in order to do it that fast, the car is put on a $7000-$10 000 car hoist and a $1000+ welder is used that also needs welding wire and sheilding gas.
Staff need to be paid+super
The acounting program that your invoice comes from is an initial purchace of about $1500 plus about$500p/y to keep up to date.
The hand and air tools used are not free and do not last forever.
The fact we deal with cars means we are inspected by the EPA twice a year at over $1000
I havn't even scratched the surface of the costs yet and it already shows you "should be more like $80" to be not enough.

You would last about a month in this trade.



Isn't that why you charge $80+ an hour ?
and pay the guy doing the job 20ish/hour....
apprentice $10+/hour....
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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Good luck to you, mate. The only thing on my car that I didn't do myself was the exhaust.. hell.. I'm willing to take a shot at painting it before I go near the pipes. Mind you, I've been EPA'd before and I wanted someone to blame if I get f**k on again.
I Doubt highly that my pipes would be legal, but I did specifically ask for a system that would pass EPA.
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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:23 pm 
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MMD wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
ILLaViTaRI wrote:
agree, should be more like $80 fitted, an hours labour if that, no parts required. It's amazing how much mechanics charge for tasks so simple. Maybe fit it all up then just get them to weld it? I wouldn't pay more than $80 unfitted just for a simple weld. Doubt you'd get a good weld DIY.

What's amazing is people like you, who have not the slightest clue about the costs involved in running a working shop, seem to think you knowwhat should be charged.

Just remember in order to do it that fast, the car is put on a $7000-$10 000 car hoist and a $1000+ welder is used that also needs welding wire and sheilding gas.
Staff need to be paid+super
The acounting program that your invoice comes from is an initial purchace of about $1500 plus about$500p/y to keep up to date.
The hand and air tools used are not free and do not last forever.
The fact we deal with cars means we are inspected by the EPA twice a year at over $1000
I havn't even scratched the surface of the costs yet and it already shows you "should be more like $80" to be not enough.

You would last about a month in this trade.



Isn't that why you charge $80+ an hour ?
and pay the guy doing the job 20ish/hour....
apprentice $10+/hour....


Try $110/hr and even that to cheap. I don't a mechanic that would bother getting out of bed to only $20/hr.
This is the problem. You people really do have no clue about the cost involved in running a workshop. If you did we wouldn't be having this chat.


Call few plumbers or sparkies and ask them what they charge an hour. It'll be higher then what we charge yet compared to us they have bugger all overheads and they will come to your house and use your electricity, your water and leave mess at your house. I still have all the old water pipes from my house in the back yard as the plumber just left it all behind. He wasn't interested when we asked him to come and take them away. The guy was here for less then 6 hours and he charged me more then $1000 in labour. And the other two plumbers that quoted were more.


I'll tell you how I set my hourly rate. I added up all the costs of operating the place Every thing from insurance to my expected water and electricity bill, building rent, staff wages to the council fees, waste collection (which has just gone up about $50 a month and my rate hasn't changed)
I need to fact I need to replace worn out tools service, 5 hoists and an air compressor 4 times a year. At some stage I'll have to replace my 4 post hoist which is going to cost over $10 000.
We need to keep up to date with new models and attend training courses as new technology come about.
Honestly To sit here and list off all the costs would take to long.

But after adding all the cost day to day running PLUS keeping up to date with information and tooling/equipment, we then worked out how many hours could realistically be charged out each day and came up with a figure. Now every six months we re-evaluate things and ajust h our hourly rate accordingly.

This whole s**t about charging lots for simple things, is just that, it's s**t. I don't care if i'm rebuilding gearbox or doing a service, hours are hours and they get charged the same.

If you can't understand it then that your problem, I charge $110/hr for regular work and $121/hr for LPG If you don't like, don't turn up at my workshop because I'm just not interested in busting a gut for nothing.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:51 pm 
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at the rate the plumber charged you better off doing it yourself,

which is the attitude most have towards their car maintenance, and risk the chance of stuffing something up.

You wonder why workshops get a bad wrap, and wonder why people think they charge so much.
i had my car in at a local workshop
leaking timing case inline 6 falcon, $700 labour plus parts was over $1000 all up.
i queried why so much, turns out he had to do it twice cause it was the seal behind the lower timing sprocket(??) which he didn't notice.

Is it my fault he had to do it twice, No. But i got charged for it. and he said my crank pulley needed replacing asked why he said it was scoured wouldn't show me the old one said "already thrown out, here is the receipt"

Think about other industries too
Fast food or restaurant business.
If i get served something s**t give me my money back and i leave.
Doesn't work in your industry does it ?
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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:34 pm 
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MMD wrote:
at the rate the plumber charged you better off doing it yourself,

which is the attitude most have towards their car maintenance, and risk the chance of stuffing something up.

You wonder why workshops get a bad wrap, and wonder why people think they charge so much.
i had my car in at a local workshop
leaking timing case inline 6 falcon, $700 labour plus parts was over $1000 all up.
i queried why so much, turns out he had to do it twice cause it was the seal behind the lower timing sprocket(??) which he didn't notice.

Is it my fault he had to do it twice, No. But i got charged for it. and he said my crank pulley needed replacing asked why he said it was scoured wouldn't show me the old one said "already thrown out, here is the receipt"

Think about other industries too
Fast food or restaurant business.
If i get served something s**t give me my money back and i leave.
Doesn't work in your industry does it ?


I don't do jobs twice, and I don't give my customers any reason to want their money back.
I'm not interested in stories about people I don't know or jobs that I didn't do.

The work that leaves my driveway is first class and done right. If I or my staff make a mistake It is fixed at MY COST, not my customers. No one is perfect and no one gets it right %100 of the time.
You choose to get work done by a cheap ill equipped workshop paying fools $20hr and in your experience You got shafted.
You chose the cheap option and ended up paying more. I probably charge double the hourly rate those fools do, But in the end I would have been cheaper and your car would have been fixed properly.


I don't wonder why workshops get a bad name, it's due to s**t work and s**t management.
I do however wonder why people like you always seem to find the s**t workshops, when I know there are plenty of good mechanics out there. The problem for people with your attitude is those good ones charge accordingly.



Quote:
You wonder why workshops get a bad wrap, and wonder why people think they charge so much.
i had my car in at a local workshop
leaking timing case inline 6 falcon, $700 labour plus parts was over $1000 all up.
i queried why so much, turns out he had to do it twice cause it was the seal behind the lower timing sprocket(??) which he didn't notice.


So he noticed and quoted on one of two leaks your car had. Then fixed both of them and you paid for it. The only thing he did wrong is not call you after fixing the first leak and letting you know there was a second one and asking if you wanted it fixed.
In the end though, you own the car and you own all its problems.

You want me to let you in a trade secret, You know when you call asking for prices, we get it that often that we can tell the difference between people like you who are just looking for the cheapest price and people who just want to know how much it will cost so they can bring enough money with them.
Here's the best bit, When people like you call, I over quote with the intent of you forcing you to go some where els. There are good customers and bad customers, the cheap price people are the bad ones that will never be happy no mater how good the job is and what the price is, The worst ones are the ones who live on the internet and think they know about cars.

I pick and choose my customers, and on more then one occasion I have just plain refused to do work for people and asked them to go somewhere els.

It's obvious you will never understand, But we run these businesses just like every other business, to make a profit. It costs what it costs. Like it or not that's the way it's always been and the way it will always be. The only thing you need to do is find a mechanic that does good work, instead of one that give low quotes.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Poor man pays twice..................

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:43 pm 
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MMD wrote:
at the rate the plumber charged you better off doing it yourself,


I think you have missed the point on that one.
I have no problem paying for good work and his work was very good.
I wasn't even bother by the price. My only issue was he left his mess behind.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:12 am 
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Wow you know so much about me ... and what kind of person or customer i am.

i never once said anything to disrespect YOU or YOUR work.
i asked a simple question regarding why you and mechanics charge what you do.
You answered with some good examples, and one about other industries.

then i clearly stated about an experience of mine, to explain why workshops get a bad wrap, and the prices get questions.
Once again no disrespect to YOU or YOUR work.
And i used other industries as examples.

I have used Cheap and Expensive and after many experiences i have found one that does great work and i don't even question the time he takes to do it or the cost.

But hey obviously you know everything there is to know, what kind of people use this forum. Hell i bet you even know what aftershave they use too.
You just make yourself sound like an arrogant prick, who cares not for anyone but them selves and are just like any other FIGJAM out there.

If you weren't bothered by the price of what the plumber charged why bring it up ?
Maybe you should of said "come back and ill pay you the call out fee + the hourly rate you charge to take it away for me ?"
Probably would of got him back - i bet he would of done a great job too.
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 Post subject: Re: Extractors, how I over estimated myself
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:41 am 
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Quote:
If you weren't bothered by the price of what the plumber charged why bring it up ?


It was a comparison of running costs vs charged rate.



Quote:
But hey obviously you know everything there is to know, what kind of people use this forum. Hell i bet you even know what aftershave they use too.
You just make yourself sound like an arrogant prick, who cares not for anyone but them selves and are just like any other FIGJAM out there.



You say that as if I'm going to be offended? I am good, and if you ask me, I WILL TELL HOW GOOD.

 

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