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I6 Individual throttle bodies project 

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:37 pm 
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skidder wrote:
That's a nice looking manifold brockyb8.

dsyfer, what's the duration of your cam?

The specs are at home, will post it once I finish work, off the top of my head the only figure I remember is intake of 274 @ 050 I think.
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:47 pm 
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dsyfer wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
This is what i currently have in the car atm.
I have just sold my old set of Individual throttle bodies .
Best of luck

Hey Brockyb8, this picture is not showing up? the old two are though, I'd like to see what the new setup looks like.


There is no picture of my current setup .
And there wont be hehe .Lol
Atleast for the moment as some of the bits havent been released to public yet.
Mind yuu ive had since sept last year.

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:10 pm 
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Brockyb8 wrote:
dsyfer wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
This is what i currently have in the car atm.
I have just sold my old set of Individual throttle bodies .
Best of luck

Hey Brockyb8, this picture is not showing up? the old two are though, I'd like to see what the new setup looks like.


There is no picture of my current setup .
And there wont be hehe .Lol
Atleast for the moment as some of the bits havent been released to public yet.
Mind yuu ive had since sept last year.

Fair enough, is this something that you fabricated for yourself? or is it a project to be released for sale as a kit?

You may not want to answer but just in case, are the letters JMM involved in this particular project? as i know there is a project they are working on.
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:12 pm 
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Brockyb8 wrote:
SV-Valiant wrote:
Brockyb8

How much more power did you get with this setup which is awesome

To be honest you dont really get heaps of power for doing this.
For the amount of money to the bits u put in tis setup there are better things u can do
That setup there with cam head and computer got me 178.6.
The previous owner had 170 - OPLEASE

What ECU is yours running?
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:47 pm 
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dsyfer wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
dsyfer wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
This is what i currently have in the car atm.
I have just sold my old set of Individual throttle bodies .
Best of luck

Hey Brockyb8, this picture is not showing up? the old two are though, I'd like to see what the new setup looks like.


There is no picture of my current setup .
And there wont be hehe .Lol
Atleast for the moment as some of the bits havent been released to public yet.
Mind yuu ive had since sept last year.

Fair enough, is this something that you fabricated for yourself? or is it a project to be released for sale as a kit?

You may not want to answer but just in case, are the letters JMM involved in this particular project? as i know there is a project they are working on.


Lol Jmm have been trying to make copies of my old kit lol.
They have been looking at my car everytime i go to a event . and taking pics
Nah its actually not a kit being made up at all .


MY car is solely built by PAul at CVE

I run a v500 wolf

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:37 pm 
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we have the cast alloy runner sets to suit this application ( as seen on brockys vehicle ) but we dont supply/stock the throttle bodys or sell these in kit form see cve!!

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:47 pm 
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However the size runners he is talking about need to have alot of work done on motor.

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:21 pm 
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66 coupe wrote:
i agree with you about the starting a vs war - it wont achieve anything, and its not my intent.

With ITB's you cannot tune for lean cruise using TPS based tuning, nor can you tune for power using map based tuning as you can reach max load (ie 100kpa) at as little as 10% throttle. Then you need to account for the extra fuel required for the other 90% throttle.
This is due to the lack of vacuum and hugely different air requirements of the engine at different throttle positions and RPM.

Using alpha-n you need to tune for mid 12 afr's at all rpm and all throttle positions, because there is no way to determine engine load. you could be under power at 3% throttle or you could be cruising at 3% throttle, the ecu will still inject the same amount of fuel.
This is where your closed loop targets will also fail, unless you can set your target afr table to use map readings for load, when your primary algorithm is alpha-n. Most ecu's use same load sensor for all maps.

The problem with this is that you will cruise at rich a/f ratios unless you can set up a multiplier table to pull fuel based on vacuum.
For example, one of my setups pulls upto 30% fuel from the primary alpha-n table based on vacuum, from 30-70kpa - this results in cruise afr's in the 14's and acceleration afr's in the mid 12's and decel in the 15's. Unfortunately you wont get this fexibility in some of the mainstream ecu's.



Closed loop will help with the cruise stuff, but then you need to have your closed loop corrections take out a lot of fuel.

With the MSII's you can do all this without needing to switch maps etc(although you can switch between 2x fuel maps, as well as the 3rd multiplier map still operating) Your primary fuel map can be alpha-n, multiplier map based on MAP and spark tables based on MAP.

It hugely depends on what the intended purpose of the vehicle is, ie track only or daily driver, i've used both ecu's but found one to be a lot better in running itb's than the other.



most of the above is why i suggested the 6860 over the stinger. the stinger only options for one load input,
the X860 range will use two load inputs, and automatically uses MAP for target afr, even if map is not one of the primary load sources, You could use MAF and TPS to determine load and still use MAP for closed loop operation.
The other up side is that with EMS stinger being the control ECU for Saloon car, all the factory ford sensors are straight plug and play.
Both the EMS X860 and MS have come along way since i last spent any time on them. They are both great units and each have there good and bad points.

and i totally agree about most of the mainstream ECUs not having a great deal of flexibility, some having none at all and are very basic (and still carry a high price tag)

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:31 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Brockyb8 wrote:
SV-Valiant wrote:
Brockyb8

How much more power did you get with this setup which is awesome

To be honest you dont really get heaps of power for doing this.
For the amount of money to the bits u put in tis setup there are better things u can do
That setup there with cam head and computer got me 178.6.
The previous owner had 170 - OPLEASE



runner length and size will have more effect then simply having 6TBs. get the runner sizes wrong for the application and you wont see huge gains.

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:05 pm 
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tickford_6 wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
SV-Valiant wrote:
Brockyb8

How much more power did you get with this setup which is awesome

To be honest you dont really get heaps of power for doing this.
For the amount of money to the bits u put in tis setup there are better things u can do
That setup there with cam head and computer got me 178.6.
The previous owner had 170 - OPLEASE



runner length and size will have more effect then simply having 6TBs. get the runner sizes wrong for the application and you wont see huge gains.


Even if their isnt much of a power gain i still think it looks awesome
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:30 pm 
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Ride: AU1 VCT & AU2 XL

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tickford_6 wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
SV-Valiant wrote:
Brockyb8

How much more power did you get with this setup which is awesome

To be honest you dont really get heaps of power for doing this.
For the amount of money to the bits u put in tis setup there are better things u can do
That setup there with cam head and computer got me 178.6.
The previous owner had 170 - OPLEASE
runner length and size will have more effect then simply having 6TBs. get the runner sizes wrong for the application and you wont see huge gains.
Exactly. I've been playing around with Lotus engine software - free download for the 1 cyl version (just model a cylinder of the 4.0L) and the differences from resonance tuning is huge. Add in various port L/D, camshaft lift, intake centre lines, advance, retard, LSA & duration.

A fairly old ROT was 7" plus 1.7" per 1000rpm below 10,000rpm for runner length. Which is why i thought your 450mm including head / port was good.

A taper of 1.5-2 degrees maintains peak velocity / cylinder fill.
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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:03 pm 
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tickford_6 wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
SV-Valiant wrote:
Brockyb8

How much more power did you get with this setup which is awesome

To be honest you dont really get heaps of power for doing this.
For the amount of money to the bits u put in tis setup there are better things u can do
That setup there with cam head and computer got me 178.6.
The previous owner had 170 - OPLEASE



runner length and size will have more effect then simply having 6TBs. get the runner sizes wrong for the application and you wont see huge gains.


I dont mean to be a little rude but how many of these have you made.
Alot of the things that everyone says will work and wont work only gets found when you actually done .

THere are alot of maths to these things and people like paul who did mine spent many months doing calculations to make my new setup best for what my car will do .

DSYFER if u got any questions msg MR CVE

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:09 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Brockyb8 wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
SV-Valiant wrote:
Brockyb8

How much more power did you get with this setup which is awesome

To be honest you dont really get heaps of power for doing this.
For the amount of money to the bits u put in tis setup there are better things u can do
That setup there with cam head and computer got me 178.6.
The previous owner had 170 - OPLEASE



runner length and size will have more effect then simply having 6TBs. get the runner sizes wrong for the application and you wont see huge gains.


I dont mean to be a little rude but how many of these have you made.
Alot of the things that everyone says will work and wont work only gets found when you actually done .

THere are alot of maths to these things and people like paul who did mine spent many months doing calculations to make my new setup best for what my car will do .

DSYFER if u got any questions msg MR CVE


Yeah you're right i don't know anything at all.

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:25 pm 
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tickford_6 wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
Brockyb8 wrote:
SV-Valiant wrote:
Brockyb8

How much more power did you get with this setup which is awesome

To be honest you dont really get heaps of power for doing this.
For the amount of money to the bits u put in tis setup there are better things u can do
That setup there with cam head and computer got me 178.6.
The previous owner had 170 - OPLEASE



runner length and size will have more effect then simply having 6TBs. get the runner sizes wrong for the application and you wont see huge gains.


I dont mean to be a little rude but how many of these have you made.
Alot of the things that everyone says will work and wont work only gets found when you actually done .

THere are alot of maths to these things and people like paul who did mine spent many months doing calculations to make my new setup best for what my car will do .

DSYFER if u got any questions msg MR CVE


Yeah you're right i don't know anything at all.


See now you just being silly im just saying until u made a set of these for this specific specification all it is just maths.
Oplease spent almost a year and a half perfecting these . Then i spent another year on them .
We then decided to build our own .

 

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 Post subject: Re: I6 Individual throttle bodies project
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Power: 217 rwkw

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There is that many builders of motors that many tuners and many mechanics.
There are going to many ways to do things and you learn by experience

 

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