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Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head? 

 

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 Post subject: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:35 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Hey guys! Found out why my cars running bad again it's done another head (replaced it 2 months ago) due to me not torquing the bolts correctly (oil leaking down the back of head, getting into cyl 6), I retorqued the bolts then it ran mint...for a second haha, now the gasket is probably worse, it has a graphite gasket on it but I've bought an AU MLS one for it this time I was wondering if I need to get the head machined all over again? Could it possibly be warped? I've also been told with the AU gasket the head should be machined thinner, I'd rather not re machine it again if I don't have to it was only done a month ago and barely even driven since.. Will I need to get it machined again??

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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Its better to have it machined, pressure tested etc and waste the cash on maybe something not needed rather than drop the head on and it needs to be taken off again and redone. Thats my advise to you mate
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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:03 pm 
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cheers mate, I'm thinking the same thing I should've mentioned I've just had it reconditioned with $650 of work done to it so if it does come up as cracked or something I don't know what i'll do! It had all cracks welded and everything it's been completely reco'd I'm particularly afraid uneven torquing of the head bolts could've warped it, last thing I wanna do is rip all those brand new valves out haha.
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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:11 pm 
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definitely get head machined, this will eliminate any flaws, imperfections giving the head a clean, flat, true surface. Otherwise if you don't, you will be replacing the head gasket again very soon.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:39 pm 
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ILLaViTaR wrote:
cheers mate, I'm thinking the same thing I should've mentioned I've just had it reconditioned with $650 of work done to it so if it does come up as cracked or something I don't know what i'll do! It had all cracks welded and everything it's been completely reco'd I'm particularly afraid uneven torquing of the head bolts could've warped it, last thing I wanna do is rip all those brand new valves out haha.

Always worth asking if your unsure though. Sucks you just spent all that money to have it fail on something silly, but it happens. I just replace the fuel pump on my Ef. Took it for a drive and on the way home got flagged down by a motorist who told me I was pissing fuel out the back of the car...... Me being the d**k I am forgot to tighten the return hose clamp. It happens to us all sometimes is all Im saying, unfortunately for you its not a cheap easy fix. On the bright side, think of all the experience..... you'll be a pro by the time your done
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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:43 pm 
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I wouldn't say it has to be remachined. Take it to a shop and get them to check if it's straight. If it's straight they will leave it. Just be careful though, the head can only be skimmed a certain amount of time so I have been told.

Also you don't have to machine your head thinner to use an AU MLS gasket. It is recommended that the head be machined/skimmed to make sure it is perfectly straight since it is a metal gasket and thus less forgiving to imperfections. This goes the same for the block mind you. So make sure the block is straight too.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:12 pm 
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phongus wrote:
I wouldn't say it has to be remachined. Take it to a shop and get them to check if it's straight. If it's straight they will leave it. Just be careful though, the head can only be skimmed a certain amount of time so I have been told.

Also you don't have to machine your head thinner to use an AU MLS gasket. It is recommended that the head be machined/skimmed to make sure it is perfectly straight since it is a metal gasket and thus less forgiving to imperfections. This goes the same for the block mind you. So make sure the block is straight too.

Good point Phongus, only question would be how many shops will be honest and say it doesnt need to be done? Its easy cash for them and he wont be able to tell if it does or doesnt. In saying that, a very good point though
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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:29 pm 
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The cylinder block needs to be very flat and the right surface finish to use an MLS headgasket.

 

 

Attachments:
File comment: BEFORE
IMGP0722_resize.JPG
IMGP0722_resize.JPG [ 151.21 KiB | Viewed 90 times ]
File comment: AFTER CLEANING
IMGP0732_resize.JPG
IMGP0732_resize.JPG [ 139.29 KiB | Viewed 103 times ]

 

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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:36 am 
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cjh wrote:
The cylinder block needs to be very flat and the right surface finish to use an MLS headgasket.


mmm god dam that is a clean block after cleaning , i kind of want to just pull my head + gasket of just to clean my bottom end up for the hell of it hoping it will run better
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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:17 pm 
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I'm cleaning the block atm I couldn't get the head machined as the shop stuffed me around but it looks absolutely mint anyway and should be ok (the gasket was mint too not a single mark, but oil was seeping between it and the head). The block haha is my main concern as there's corrosion on it and I've tried my best to get it all off but having a hard time. As long as it's flat though it should be ok? I went over it with a wire brush on a drill and there was a lot of dust/buggered metal at first.

Image
Image

I was wondering specifally how to torque the headbolts?? as in the correct way, last time I did them all to 40nm and the 90 degrees (they were eb head bolts) and was told to make sure to go over all the bolts a couple of times making sure they're all an even 40nm. Then after that do them all up 90 degrees in one hit... well I did this and by the time I got to the end ones they were loose due to the previous bolts been tensioned up... so it didn't feel right at all, I feel it would be better to for example after doing the previous bolt up to 90 degrees, retorque the next one it 40nm again, before doing it up 90 degrees and repeat in this manner. I swear by the time I got to the end bolts after finishing all the previous ones they were only finger tight..
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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:32 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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OK.....that corrosion doesn't look good.....on the block.
Wire brush in a drill doesn't cut it for cleaning a block, then puting a head gasket on it.
For starters, that doesn't really make the block clean enough for a new gasket....it basically polishes the block....not good for gasket adhesion.

You will need to block off all the oil drain points in the block, with heavy paper towel or rags....this goes for the timing cover end too....also for the intake manifold if it's still fitted.
You will need to use a rubbing block ( about 250mm long ) with wide emery tape of about 120 grit to sand the block....and give the head a light going over too....and clean it.
Make sure the cylinder head bolts HOLES in the head are champfered, so the bolts don't bind, giving you a false torque reading.
Clean with compressed air and carby spray.
Clean the head bolt holes with carby spray to remove carbon and other deposits.

Cleanlyness is key to a job that is lasting.

I use Hylomar ( spray can ) on the new head gasket.
Use super glue to hold down the front timing cover gasket/rubber seal....in the corners at the timing cover, and a couple of spots inbetween.
Make sure you have the new cylinder head locating dowels in place.
Apply Toyota Black Gasket material ( looks like black RTV Silicone, but way better), to the rubber seal area at the block end of the timing cover, and not too much, then place the Hylomar sprayed head gasket ( both sides ), onto the block....CAREFULLY....no sliding it about, got to be a deadeye d!ck with it.
Apply some more Toyota Black again in the same spot....not too much......this will stop oil leaking at the spot where they nearly always go....in the corners where the block meets timing cover, meets cylinder head.
Then fit your nice clean head....again, don't slide it about.

Put 2 head bolts in the centre....they must be dry at this point.
Nip them up to about 20Nm.....then fit 2 more either side of those, so that there are now 6 bolts in, and torqued to 20Nm.
Now remove the centre bolts, apply engine oil ( 15W40 ) to the threads, and some Moly grease under the head of the head bolts.
Torque them down to 20Nm.

I do it this way to minimise the event of the oil from the threads seeping between the gasket and the head/block.....hasn't failed me yet....I do it for every thing like that.

Carry on for all of them....then start at the middle again, and do the 40Nm, twice, then wait 20mins, and recheck 40Nm.
Then do your +90*.
Drop your oil, as it may have been watered down by carby spray.....fill with oil, and a new oil filter.

When all back together and ready to run....have NO water in the cooling system....start engine, and feel for heat at the head near No.1 s/plug, when heat is detected, like about 40*C, turn off.....and let cool...do this about 3 times.
Let cool off, and fill with ordinary water, and NO rad cap fitted, and run till op. temp on the gauge.
Let cool....do this twice....check for leaks.
Fit rad. cap and take for a short drive.....about 15 mins....check for leaks.
Drive it normally for 2 weeks....NO flogging it....then flush cooling system, and add your coolant/inhibitor.
Change oil and filter again.

You should have trouble free motoring for a while.....head gasket wise.

This is what/how I do it.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:01 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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cjh wrote:
OK.....that corrosion doesn't look good.....on the block.
Wire brush in a drill doesn't cut it for cleaning a block, then puting a head gasket on it.
For starters, that doesn't really make the block clean enough for a new gasket....it basically polishes the block....not good for gasket adhesion.

You will need to block off all the oil drain points in the block, with heavy paper towel or rags....this goes for the timing cover end too....also for the intake manifold if it's still fitted.
You will need to use a rubbing block ( about 250mm long ) with wide emery tape of about 120 grit to sand the block....and give the head a light going over too....and clean it.
Make sure the cylinder head bolts HOLES in the head are champfered, so the bolts don't bind, giving you a false torque reading.
Clean with compressed air and carby spray.
Clean the head bolt holes with carby spray to remove carbon and other deposits.

Cleanlyness is key to a job that is lasting.

I use Hylomar ( spray can ) on the new head gasket.
Use super glue to hold down the front timing cover gasket/rubber seal....in the corners at the timing cover, and a couple of spots inbetween.
Make sure you have the new cylinder head locating dowels in place.
Apply Toyota Black Gasket material ( looks like black RTV Silicone, but way better), to the rubber seal area at the block end of the timing cover, and not too much, then place the Hylomar sprayed head gasket ( both sides ), onto the block....CAREFULLY....no sliding it about, got to be a deadeye d!ck with it.
Apply some more Toyota Black again in the same spot....not too much......this will stop oil leaking at the spot where they nearly always go....in the corners where the block meets timing cover, meets cylinder head.
Then fit your nice clean head....again, don't slide it about.

Put 2 head bolts in the centre....they must be dry at this point.
Nip them up to about 20Nm.....then fit 2 more either side of those, so that there are now 6 bolts in, and torqued to 20Nm.
Now remove the centre bolts, apply engine oil ( 15W40 ) to the threads, and some Moly grease under the head of the head bolts.
Torque them down to 20Nm.

I do it this way to minimise the event of the oil from the threads seeping between the gasket and the head/block.....hasn't failed me yet....I do it for every thing like that.

Carry on for all of them....then start at the middle again, and do the 40Nm, twice, then wait 20mins, and recheck 40Nm.
Then do your +90*.
Drop your oil, as it may have been watered down by carby spray.....fill with oil, and a new oil filter.

When all back together and ready to run....have NO water in the cooling system....start engine, and feel for heat at the head near No.1 s/plug, when heat is detected, like about 40*C, turn off.....and let cool...do this about 3 times.
Let cool off, and fill with ordinary water, and NO rad cap fitted, and run till op. temp on the gauge.
Let cool....do this twice....check for leaks.
Fit rad. cap and take for a short drive.....about 15 mins....check for leaks.
Drive it normally for 2 weeks....NO flogging it....then flush cooling system, and add your coolant/inhibitor.
Change oil and filter again.

You should have trouble free motoring for a while.....head gasket wise.

This is what/how I do it.


Awesome! it's all back together and is practically running mint :) when I ran it without water to bond the gasket it got a bit hot the first time (around the back of the head), now there is a mechanical clacking noise possible dry lifter coming from around the center of the rocker cover, would be a bit annoying to drive around with but besides that it's going good! I can't thank everyone enough the car actually runs really well now!
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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:49 pm 
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argh the sound is still there and it's louder now too after taking it for a drive, I took off the rocker cover off and everything looks fine, there's play in the rocker arms from side to side if you wiggle them (some more so than others), not sure if this is normal or not.. I took a soundclip and it doesn't sound like a lifter to me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNqmpK-V4bk), it doesn't really sound like a lifter to me more like something bad.. It's definitely coming from the rocker gear/ head though not the block.
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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:40 am 
Getting Side Ways
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The rockers do move a little side ways, and not wobbly.
Are they bolted down properly ???
How many K's have they done ???
Have the HLA's been replaced before ???
Is the timing chain tensioner set properly ???

 

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 Post subject: Re: Need to redo headgasket. Do I have to recmahine the head?
Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:15 am 
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you ran an engine with a new head gasket with out water in it, that is not the wisest thing to do, i don't care who said to but unless the engine is air cooled it must have at least water in it, your looking at ripping the head off again, you will have a real hot spot at the back of the block/head that will never be good again, you are running on borrowed time.

why do people think it is safe to run a liquid cooled engine with no liquid in it?
that is engine suicide.

 

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