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Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs 

 

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 Post subject: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:32 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EB1 Fairmont Ghia T5 Wagon

Location: Seven Hills, Sydney
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Good Day

I am seeking some advice on what components would cause my EB to run really rich on idle and at low to mid range revs.

Some details about the car.

EB1 Wagon
EL Ghia ECU with resistor trick for Manual
EL Engine with Log Manifold - Complete manifold was on ED engine in same car running fine on petrol, but with EB ECU
T5 Conversion
Dual Fuel - runs fine on LPG
Pacemaker Extractors, highflow cat, 2.5" Redback exhaust.

Things tried so far.

EL Std ECU - Made no difference
Resetting ECU - Made no difference
Swapped in known good HEGO - No difference
Swapped in known good map sensor - No difference
Swapped Tickford Fuel Pressure Reg for Std Fuel Pressure Reg - No noticeable difference

Things I plan to try.

EB ECU
New HEGO - should get one anyway

Other useful info.

Has new Plugs, Leads, Dizzy Cap and Rotor Button
Coil deemed good as no issues on LPG
Made 126rwkw while running like this. Does not run overly rich obove 3000rmp. You can see the the exhaust visibly clear when it hits 3k.

Any suggestions would be useful.

Cheers
BenJ

 

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BenJ's EB T5 DOHC Ghia Wagon - Current Ride
BenJ's EB GL Sedan - Previous Ride
My respect and thanks go to - snap0964, Paulmac, SWC and MRE-50L

Last edited by BenJ on Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:44 am 
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hi ben
the first thing that comes to mind is have tried another map sensor??
and how good are the vacuum hoses??
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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:45 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EB1 Fairmont Ghia T5 Wagon

Location: Seven Hills, Sydney
NSW, Australia

Hi Troy.

Yes, I have changed the Map sensor. I will check the vac hoses though, and make sure they are all attached.

I will edit first post with Map Sensor info.

BenJ

 

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BenJ's EB T5 DOHC Ghia Wagon - Current Ride
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My respect and thanks go to - snap0964, Paulmac, SWC and MRE-50L

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:58 am 
Getting Side Ways
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have you had the afr's checked on a dyno?
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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:08 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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its the extractors. wider diameter were the O2 sensor is means it thinks the emisions are low and increases the afr's. get it dyno tuned.

dont think i explained it spot on but it will be the increase in header diameter

 

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:15 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Posts: 5582

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Gallery: 11 images

Ride: EB1 Fairmont Ghia T5 Wagon

Location: Seven Hills, Sydney
NSW, Australia

But I have been running the extractors for well over a year now in my red eb with the same engine, and ECU, but with a BBM, and it never displayed these symptoms.

BenJ

 

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My respect and thanks go to - snap0964, Paulmac, SWC and MRE-50L

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:16 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EB1 Fairmont Ghia T5 Wagon

Location: Seven Hills, Sydney
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FordFairmont wrote:
have you had the afr's checked on a dyno?


No not yet.

Last resort due to $$$$$.

BenJ

 

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BenJ's EB T5 DOHC Ghia Wagon - Current Ride
BenJ's EB GL Sedan - Previous Ride
My respect and thanks go to - snap0964, Paulmac, SWC and MRE-50L

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Location: Newcastle
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How about a dead coolant temp sensor or an oxygen sensor?
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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:29 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Arent the EL fuel maps different at lower rpm for the longer runners? ie more fuel?

 

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2006 BF Fairlane Ghia 6C

Huge thanks to BenJ, TROYMAN, fiend and XR-Lane. The E-series knowledge/motivation pool.

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:37 pm 
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How do you know the map sensor is good? have you checked its frequency output (Hz) at the ecu? are they all within tolerance? Just because it may not be that old or worked before doesn't mean it hasn't died. Id check it again.

Id check the vacuum line to it (map) and also and to the fuel reg as mentioned before.

Check your coolant and act sensors.

How is your idle? does it idle very rough like it has a mild miss? or is it just running rich?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:42 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Location: Sydney
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NZEA wrote:
Arent the EL fuel maps different at lower rpm for the longer runners? ie more fuel?



The log manifold has permanent long runners (for lack of a better term), so if anything it would be over fueled it the upper rpm region not the lower as the bbm switches to the short runners which intern increases the air speed into the combustion chamber which the log manifold cannot do as it is a solid cast manifold. But the car should run fine whether it has bbm or log.

 

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IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED
DESTROY ALL EVIDENCE THAT YOU EVEN TRIED


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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:07 pm 
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FLASH wrote:
NZEA wrote:
Arent the EL fuel maps different at lower rpm for the longer runners? ie more fuel?



The log manifold has permanent long runners (for lack of a better term), so if anything it would be over fueled it the upper rpm region not the lower as the bbm switches to the short runners which intern increases the air speed into the combustion chamber which the log manifold cannot do as it is a solid cast manifold. But the car should run fine whether it has bbm or log.


Oh ok my bad, I was under the impression the shorter runners on the bbm were the same length as the log. Hence the bbm creates more torque down low with longer runners.

 

_________________

1989 EA Falcon column shift - SOLD
1990 EAII, BBM, EL ECU, T5, LSD - SOLD
1993 EBII Fairmont Ghia V8 - SOLD
2006 BF Fairlane Ghia 6C

Huge thanks to BenJ, TROYMAN, fiend and XR-Lane. The E-series knowledge/motivation pool.

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:20 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Posts: 5582

Joined: 20th May 2005

Gallery: 11 images

Ride: EB1 Fairmont Ghia T5 Wagon

Location: Seven Hills, Sydney
NSW, Australia

xpvanman wrote:
How about a dead coolant temp sensor or an oxygen sensor?


OXY Sensor (HEGO) has already been swapped with a known good one.

The Coolant Temp Sensor I am going to call as ok, as in the EL ECU all the temps info is sourced from the one sensor, including the dash temp guage, and it indicates the temp as per normal. But I will place it on the list of suspects.


FLASH wrote:
How do you know the map sensor is good? have you checked its frequency output (Hz) at the ecu? are they all within tolerance? Just because it may not be that old or worked before doesn't mean it hasn't died. Id check it again.


I have not checked its frequency output. I grabbed this one out of my Wifes ED Ghia which was running great before I pulled the engine out.

FLASH wrote:
Id check the vacuum line to it (map) and also and to the fuel reg as mentioned before.


Will double check these.

FLASH wrote:
Check your coolant and act sensors.


Coolant as above. ACT? Air Temp? This I plan to pull out and give a clean. In a b**ch of a spot though LOL.

FLASH wrote:
How is your idle? does it idle very rough like it has a mild miss? or is it just running rich?


It idles like it has a huge cam in it, hunts around and you can visibly see the black exhaust fumes from the unburnt fuel.


FLASH wrote:
NZEA wrote:
Arent the EL fuel maps different at lower rpm for the longer runners? ie more fuel?


The log manifold has permanent long runners (for lack of a better term), so if anything it would be over fueled it the upper rpm region not the lower as the bbm switches to the short runners which intern increases the air speed into the combustion chamber which the log manifold cannot do as it is a solid cast manifold. But the car should run fine whether it has bbm or log.


I find your comment about the LOG manifold as having permanent LONG runners interesting. I have always considered (for no logical reason) the LOG manifold to have permanent SHORT runners. This would then have the reverse symptoms of running rich down low, and leaning out more at higher air speed. It would be interesting to measure the various paths. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the log actually has a runner length somewhere in between the short and long paths of the BBM.


Tonight I will install an EB ECU and see what happens. Without changing any other components, this should show if it is a Fuel Map issue vs a dud sensor etc.

Troyman? Did you run your EL Ghia ECU in your ED before you put in the BBM Manifold?

Cheers and thanks for your input everyone?
BenJ

 

_________________

BenJ's EB T5 DOHC Ghia Wagon - Current Ride
BenJ's EB GL Sedan - Previous Ride
My respect and thanks go to - snap0964, Paulmac, SWC and MRE-50L

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:22 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Posts: 5582

Joined: 20th May 2005

Gallery: 11 images

Ride: EB1 Fairmont Ghia T5 Wagon

Location: Seven Hills, Sydney
NSW, Australia

NZEA wrote:
FLASH wrote:
NZEA wrote:
Arent the EL fuel maps different at lower rpm for the longer runners? ie more fuel?



The log manifold has permanent long runners (for lack of a better term), so if anything it would be over fueled it the upper rpm region not the lower as the bbm switches to the short runners which intern increases the air speed into the combustion chamber which the log manifold cannot do as it is a solid cast manifold. But the car should run fine whether it has bbm or log.


Oh ok my bad, I was under the impression the shorter runners on the bbm were the same length as the log. Hence the bbm creates more torque down low with longer runners.


I agree with you re the log manifold having "short" runners. See post above.

BenJ

 

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BenJ's EB T5 DOHC Ghia Wagon - Current Ride
BenJ's EB GL Sedan - Previous Ride
My respect and thanks go to - snap0964, Paulmac, SWC and MRE-50L

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 Post subject: Re: Running Rich at Idle and Low/Mid Revs
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Ride: ford falcon au3 xr8

Location: a shit suburb in sydney
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BenJ wrote:

It idles like it has a huge cam in it, hunts around and you can visibly see the black exhaust fumes from the unburnt fuel.

Troyman? Did you run your EL Ghia ECU in your ED before you put in the BBM Manifold?
BenJ


hey ben..
if its hunting around i would try the tps switch? check the voltage ignition on throttle closed..should be 0.7v or if i remember correctly you still have the duel tps switch on your manifold? just unplug one and plug the other one in and see what happens..
and yes i had the el ecu running with the log for about a week before i changed the manifold over and it ran fine..
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