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Stall Converter 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:08 pm 
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What cam have you got?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:11 pm 
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im still unsure, iv rang my tuner about many things and always asking can u find out the cam i have and then ring up next day andhe still has no idea,( hes fking busy) it takes 2-3weeks to get my car in there for work, but i reckon its a crow cam proberly mild tho as there is no kick from the cam( i cant feel the diffrence in power at any rev range)

like i said tho a chip will help two things a stally will only help one and a chip give u more smother power to

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:14 pm 
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you also need to keep in mind, that the bigger the cam the less torque you will have down low, so if you dont have a higher stall the car will be a dog untill the cam is in its rev range, which in some cases will actually make the car slower off the mark than std..

thats why wade reccomend higher stall or manuals with there bigger cams.
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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:14 pm 
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paulos wrote:
im still unsure, iv rang my tuner about many things and always asking can u find out the cam i have and then ring up next day andhe still has no idea,( hes fking busy) it takes 2-3weeks to get my car in there for work, but i reckon its a crow cam proberly mild tho as there is no kick from the cam( i cant feel the diffrence in power at any rev range)

like i said tho a chip will help two things a stally will only help one and a chip give u more smother power to

I have the J3, i guess a re-tune with the specs of a large WADE billit might do it, but im talking mega, best ya can get with a Falcon 6 4litre(best for me)

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:14 pm 
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oh and because your in sa if your close to lonsdale go see henrich performance and tuning cheap on price comapred to any other place in sa, and only works on ford( a few holdens tho)

a chip from some other place cost 1400 with one dyno tune

from henirch 950 with 3-4dyno tunes

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:17 pm 
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TROYMAN wrote:
you also need to keep in mind, that the bigger the cam the less torque you will have down low, so if you dont have a higher stall the car will be a dog untill the cam is in its rev range, which in some cases will actually make the car slower off the mark than std..

thats why wade reccomend higher stall or manuals with there bigger cams.

Thanks heaps Troyman, that makes sense, do you no why cams suck at giving the car acceleration?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:29 pm 
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cams dont suck at giving cars acceleration lol...

a cam works in a certain rev range, thats just how an engine works.
stock cam is somthing like 1500rpm-4500rpm

a car will make more power with a larger cam and rev higher, this shifts the power band higher and can also be shorter depending on just how large a cam you go.

ie, a very large cam might have a powerband of 4500-7000rpm
so below 4500rpm the car might actually be slower than standard.
in a manual you overcome this by rev matching with the clutch.
in an auto you do it by fitting a hi stall that suits the cam better.

think of a high stall as an automatic clutch that lets you rev to a certain point before gripping.
thats all its doing.

i had a gemini converter in my turbo 202 and it would rev to 2800-3000rpm before gripping.
converters are made to suit certain power and torque forces.


you can actually get a 2800 stall off ebay for $400 and still retains lockup.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:32 pm 
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misk_one wrote:
cams dont suck at giving cars acceleration lol...

a cam works in a certain rev range, thats just how an engine works.
stock cam is somthing like 1500rpm-4500rpm

a car will make more power with a larger cam and rev higher, this shifts the power band higher and can also be shorter depending on just how large a cam you go.

ie, a very large cam might have a powerband of 4500-7000rpm
so below 4500rpm the car might actually be slower than standard.
in a manual you overcome this by rev matching with the clutch.
in an auto you do it by fitting a hi stall that suits the cam better.

think of a high stall as an automatic clutch that lets you rev to a certain point before gripping.
thats all its doing.

i had a gemini converter in my turbo 202 and it would rev to 2800-3000rpm before gripping.
converters are made to suit certain power and torque forces.


you can actually get a 2800 stall off ebay for $400 and still retains lockup.

Will a bigger CAM always give better results at higher revs, or can you get a big lumpy thing for all rev ranges

 

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Now, I've got a message for all the other drivers out there. If you smell a delicious, crispy smell after the race, it's not your tailpipe. It's just a little of Shake...and Bake!
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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:23 pm 
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ford-racer46 wrote:
Will a bigger CAM always give better results at higher revs, or can you get a big lumpy thing for all rev ranges
Not necessarily. When you are talking about bigger, you are talking about duration. That is a small part of it and really only the result of the valve timing events and making sure they are optimum is more important.

Things like the lobe separation angle - LSA - plays a big part. If you do some reading by people like David Vizard on the web. Alternatively A.Grahame Bell (Maitland NSW) 4 Stroke Performance Tuning & Forced Induction Performance Tuning -hardcovers 400 pages each - get them on Amazon / Ebay they'll talk alot about Intake Centrelines & LSA. Both writers have 40 years of experience.

A couple of Rule of Thumb
* peak power rpm -500rpm for every 2 degrees tighter LSA.
* peak power rpm +500rpm for every 20deg of 0.050 overlap increase. ie 10 intake & 10 exhaust.
* Tighter LSA condenses the power/torque curve into a smaller rpm range. Make for punchier/revvier motors. It affects idle quality, low rpm tq can be down as well as high rpm power. But peak torque can be up and average power/tq can be higher across the majority of the used rev range.
* Wider LSA like factory SOHC 4.0L cams broaden, but flatten the torque curve. Minimal overlap but idle well.

Factory cam SOHC is around 175/175 @0.050 & 117 LSA.
Wade 977B is 206/206 @ 0.050 & 112 LSA.

Between them, the 977B has 62deg more overlap which should equal max power rpm +1500rpm, but the tighter LSA (by 5) reduces that back down to +250rpm. Add in 10% higher lift and it raises the max power rpm by a few hundred rpm. Overall 500rpm.
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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:40 pm 
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phillyc wrote:
ford-racer46 wrote:
Will a bigger CAM always give better results at higher revs, or can you get a big lumpy thing for all rev ranges
Not necessarily. When you are talking about bigger, you are talking about duration. That is a small part of it and really only the result of the valve timing events and making sure they are optimum is more important.

Things like the lobe separation angle - LSA - plays a big part. If you do some reading by people like David Vizard on the web. Alternatively A.Grahame Bell (Maitland NSW) 4 Stroke Performance Tuning & Forced Induction Performance Tuning -hardcovers 400 pages each - get them on Amazon / Ebay they'll talk alot about Intake Centrelines & LSA. Both writers have 40 years of experience.

A couple of Rule of Thumb
* peak power rpm -500rpm for every 2 degrees tighter LSA.
* peak power rpm +500rpm for every 20deg of 0.050 overlap increase. ie 10 intake & 10 exhaust.
* Tighter LSA condenses the power/torque curve into a smaller rpm range. Make for punchier/revvier motors. It affects idle quality, low rpm tq can be down as well as high rpm power. But peak torque can be up and average power/tq can be higher across the majority of the used rev range.
* Wider LSA like factory SOHC 4.0L cams broaden, but flatten the torque curve. Minimal overlap but idle well.

Factory cam SOHC is around 175/175 @0.050 & 117 LSA.
Wade 977B is 206/206 @ 0.050 & 112 LSA.

Between them, the 977B has 62deg more overlap which should equal max power rpm +1500rpm, but the tighter LSA (by 5) reduces that back down to +250rpm. Add in 10% higher lift and it raises the max power rpm by a few hundred rpm. Overall 500rpm.


......I had to read it about 4 times, i think im starting to understand, i need to learn a bit more about this suff i think, you seem to have a tight crasp on the subject. WADE catered my cam to an auto trans but i think thats if it wasnt gonna be chipped does it matter with a J3?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:01 pm 
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kinda missed the point if you are still asking those kind of questions.
falcons use manifold pressure as a reference. which means when you change cam, there is a different manifolds pressure given for a certain RPM and TPS , so the fuelling becomes incorrect.
the larger the cam and more narrow the LSA the more lower revs needs work tune wise.
it would still require you to get a hi stall for a large cam, chip or not.

 

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mild engine, EL ECU & J3, HI6 & MSD coil

in the shed - .595" lift cam, GT4202, forged AU engine, ems 4424 ecu, glide & 5500 stall - next-bellhousing

XH ute daily - DOHC BA XR6 engine, T5, AU3 ECU, J3 chip, wideband & logger, ported BBM, 3" intake

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:29 pm 
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misk_one wrote:
kinda missed the point if you are still asking those kind of questions.
falcons use manifold pressure as a reference. which means when you change cam, there is a different manifolds pressure given for a certain RPM and TPS , so the fuelling becomes incorrect.
the larger the cam and more narrow the LSA the more lower revs needs work tune wise.
it would still require you to get a hi stall for a large cam, chip or not.

OK i get ya now, thanks man!

 

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Now, I've got a message for all the other drivers out there. If you smell a delicious, crispy smell after the race, it's not your tailpipe. It's just a little of Shake...and Bake!
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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:44 am 
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Don't forget guys when you fit a stall converter you have to up your trans line pressure.
You must fit a shift kit to do so. A stall converter loses line pressure therefore will burn your clutches in your trans.
When fitting a stally you must have a shift kit fitted, a trans cooler or a LHM if using a std. ecu or a J3 chip with LHM instaled.
My personal opinion is if you drive your car everyday don't get one.
I instaled a wade 977B cam with my std. converter & the engine was hunting. I got told it must have a stally. So i got a Stage 2 more stall 2500-2800 rpm & reco'd the box at the same time.
Didn't fix the problem. Then i got the j3 chip & fixed the hunting problem.
I drive my car everyday & lost heaps of power under stall speed. Also with a stally you gain more torque sooner in the rev range but loose power top end. All the engine builders, dyno operators & T.I Performance will tell you.
The std. converter has a stall speed of approx. 2000 rpm anyway.
I feel that the std. converter would have give'n me better driveability in everybay (traffic) & more power top end.
In saying that i'm very, very happy with the performance of my car & stally but just lost that everyday driveability.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:24 am 
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i had my shift built into the box when i had it rebuilt and running a 3000 hi stall
3000 was needed as my cam comes in at 2300, so when racing the car launches at 2800 right on power and torque band.
And i use it as a daily driver no probs (yes it's alittle rough but nothing bad)
yes you will lose abit of top end power but make up for it in the torque!

 

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 Post subject: Re: Stall Converter
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:59 pm 
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ford-racer46.... What is it exactly that you want from your motor? One minute you want turbo or forced induction, next minute you want the lot with the lot but in an NA setup (read here: ford-4l-and-6-cylinder-f1/re-build-for-supercharging-t91337.html). Do you actually want a motor or do you just want friends?

Have you got any mates with turbo, supercharged or NA setups? Ask em to take you for a spin so you can get a sample, then take your pick and stick with it. And remember to set realistic goals.

Anyway back on topic.

Torque converters are the Automatic transmission equivalent to a centrifugal clutch. Stall speed is the max speed that the motor is allowed to turn whilst the car is held stationary. And that does not mean holding it with a foot brake, as a well setup converter will easily overcome the foot-brake at or near stall speed. Only way to truly stall a car up is with a trans-brake (especially if its turbo). And before you put a trans-brake n your wish-list just hold that thought for a few moments as Adelaide doesn't have any drag strips (the only place a trans-brake will be of any use).

Again, back on topic.. again.
When you are travelling at a low speed (under 25km/h) and you take your foot off the accelerator and then smash it again. The rpm that the engine revs to before you feel the car start to pull is the flash stall speed. This is a better indication for selecting a converter on a non trans-brake equipped car. If the flash stall matches the peak torque rpm of the engine then the car will be a rather potent street weapon.

As for cam's. You can have a cam that is lumpy everywhere in the rev range (and utterly useless for anything apart from its intended design purpose). Its called a pro stock cam :lol:

Being a fixed geometry item, camshafts are compromise items. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Lumpy basically means gutless down low and powerful up high. The lumpier the cam, the more gutless it is down low whilst it pulls harder up top. But its more involved than that. Read phillyc's post a few more times and get the books he mentioned. Its the only way way you are going to learn how engines work. Pimply faced keyboard warriors only know so much before their knowledge plateau's and they pump you full of the crap that you want to hear.
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