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timing chain tensioner problems 

 

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 Post subject: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:28 pm 
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Im changing the cylinder head on my falcon xg, it has an eb2 mpfi. I got all the manifolds, pipes and wires done, rocker cover off, then i tried to release the tension on the timing chain(i had a vague idea what to do, but in hindsight absolutely non haha). The plug bolt was stuck to retainer so came out as one peice, i screwed it back in and now ive broken up the sleeve (part with the ~3m allen key hole), so i pulled it back out managed to seperate the retainer from the plug bolt and pull all the bits out, now ive broken it down ive got a good idea of how it works i think.
Problem 1: The piston is still stuck in, how would people suggest getting it out/is it necessary to? i think i have to because im worried about other bits of broken sleeve still being in there
Problem 2: The timing chain is obviously slack because the timing chain retainer is out, is it ok to finish off removing the rocker arms, camshaft and cylinder head whilst the retainer is out and piston is in? (this car is my daily driver so while im figuring out the tensioner issues, i can send the cylinder head for resurfacing so not too waste time)
any help appreciated cheers fellas
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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:29 pm 
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straight6blitz wrote:

Problem 1: The piston is still stuck in, how would people suggest getting it out/is it necessary to? i think i have to because im worried about other bits of broken sleeve still being in there

I poked a long screwdriver down next to the timing chain to move the piston. You should be able to get it out using compressed air, one of your fingers or some pointy-nose pliers (unless it's seized in place)

straight6blitz wrote:
Problem 2: The timing chain is obviously slack because the timing chain retainer is out, is it ok to finish off removing the rocker arms, camshaft and cylinder head whilst the retainer is out and piston is in?

Before removing any rocker gear, make sure you have the timing chain cable tied in 2 places on the top sprocket, or it might jump a tooth. Be careful removing the head because you can snap the chain tensioner.

 

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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:19 pm 
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ok so things have gone from annoying to real f***in bad, fixed the timing chain tensioner up (got some new bits from the wreckers) so i was stoked. Then i started to loosen the cylinder head bolts, i was progressively loosening them, they were done up so tight it took all my strength with a breaker bar and extension of equal length to loosen them, oh and both my 14mm lifetime warranty socket were split, so i have one more to crack but cant because my sockets are dead. Now for the bad news, one of the head bolts has sheared in half (so i assume the rest of it is in the block), what are some possible solutions to this? grandad reckons maybe some easy outs and heat, but first i need to finish those head bolts to get the head off. Also is this normal amount of force required to remove head bolts?
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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:01 pm 
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straight6blitz wrote:
ok so things have gone from annoying to real f***in bad, fixed the timing chain tensioner up (got some new bits from the wreckers) so i was stoked. Then i started to loosen the cylinder head bolts, i was progressively loosening them, they were done up so tight it took all my strength with a breaker bar and extension of equal length to loosen them, oh and both my 14mm lifetime warranty socket were split, so i have one more to crack but cant because my sockets are dead. Now for the bad news, one of the head bolts has sheared in half (so i assume the rest of it is in the block), what are some possible solutions to this? grandad reckons maybe some easy outs and heat, but first i need to finish those head bolts to get the head off. Also is this normal amount of force required to remove head bolts?


Smack the head bolts that won't give with a hammer a few times and tighten down the bolts either side and try that. As for the bolt that has snapped, you may find that when you get the head off you will be able to undo it by hand as these bolts do not bed out.
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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Quote:
Also is this normal amount of force required to remove head bolts?


basically, yes. It is good practice to use an impact socket on the head bolts, the type of socket that is used on a rattle gun (air gun) as they are much thicker and sturdier. Use for both undoing and doing up

Quote:
one of the head bolts has sheared in half (so i assume the rest of it is in the block), what are some possible solutions to this


Either as SWC said, or get yourself a stud remover if enough bolt sticks up, or file two flats on the stud of the bolt if you can, and used a shifter.

If the bolt is broken at or below the block level, drill and try an "ezyout" or you might have to drill and helicoil.
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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:05 pm 
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Thanks a lot for the help fellas, really appreciate it! I'll get back to it on my day off tomorrow, definitely gonna buy a 14mm impact socket.
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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:14 pm 
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I'll stick in my 2 cents while we're being helpful...

An impact usually is single hex, where standard sockets are double hex... A single hex socket is less likely to slip on the head of the bolt and round it off... So many people try double hex sockets and round head bolts off, making it much harder to remove...

Cheers,
Tim

 

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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:55 pm 
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TimmyA wrote:
I'll stick in my 2 cents while we're being helpful...

An impact usually is single hex, where standard sockets are double hex... A single hex socket is less likely to slip on the head of the bolt and round it off... So many people try double hex sockets and round head bolts off, making it much harder to remove...

Cheers,
Tim


What he said^^

The times I've done head gaskets, the bolts require an impact socket with single hex on a breaker bar with a nice piece of pipe on the end. Making sure you use a nice level, even swing while holding the socket square on the hex of the head bolt.

They always make an almighty crack when they go. The first time I did it I thought the bolt snapped.

 

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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:02 pm 
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Quote:
They always make an almighty crack when they go. The first time I did it I thought the bolt snapped.


+1 here too!! I was thinking: "It can't take a length of pipe this long to undo the bolts!!!"
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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:31 pm 
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so i got the six point sockets and got the head bolts, pulled off the rocker gear and camshaft, pulled the head off. The sheared cylinder head bolt will require an drilling and tapping, i have a mate who is a fitter who can help me with that. When i removed the upper fixed timing chain damper bolt i realized that the upper fixed damper is snapped about two inches from the top. i understand its alot of work removing the timing cover to replace the damper, am i right that you must remove the timing cover to replace it? Will only missing a little bit be a bad problem(wishful thinking probably)?. It has got me thinking with this broken stud and possible timing chain and cover overhaul, would it be a better idea to replace the block or engine? I am a poor student by the way so money is an object. I have just put alot of money into the rest of my car; new bearings, rotors, calipers and pads all four corners. new fuel pump, pressure regulator, had the tank cleaned, fuel filter, 6 new injectors, mags, bullbar, idler arm, auto filter, oil filter and a bunch of other little things so now im next to broke. So after getting it going well again the head gasket blew, what would you do in my situation?
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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:17 pm 
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If you are going to replace the timing chain guide you might as well hoist the block out and put a new timing chain kit in (about $70). The sump needs to be lowered to get the bottom chain guide on anyway, and lying on the ground to undo all the sump bolts is a pain. Some will suggest putting a secondhand engine in, but then you may have a repeat of the current problem. Also replace the welsh plugs with some brass ones while the engine is out.

 

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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Ah poo.. that sucks man.
Doing timing gear in the car is no good. Not impossible but there may be other issues resulting from doing so such as severe oil leaks if it the gasket surface isn't perfectly clean and the gasket needs to be aligned and sealed nicely as it is a 3 piece.

Like above. Hoist it out and you can give the other typical areas a good once over while at it (Welch plugs, some gaskets like the sump,, hoses, etc).

It might be a good learning experience. Shop around for parts, do your research and definitely invest in a gregories manual. If you do that you'll be right.

 

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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Agree:engine out is easy out everything. If you have messed up this much (and trust me, I have done this!!!) engine out can fix a LOT of possible ills, such as heater pipes, welch plugs, sump gaskets, timing cover gaskets, rear mains, flex plate torques, etc.................

BTW: Stainless steel scouring pads from Coles are really good for cleaning the block/head (with a vacuum cleaner)
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 Post subject: Re: timing chain tensioner problems
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:54 pm 
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EFFUTURA4.05SP wrote:
The times I've done head gaskets, the bolts require an impact socket with single hex on a breaker bar with a nice piece of pipe on the end. Making sure you use a nice level, even swing while holding the socket square on the hex of the head bolt.

They always make an almighty crack when they go. The first time I did it I thought the bolt snapped.



hmmmmmm........ that could explain why the EB i bought went so cheap! the head bolts came undone tooo easy :shock:
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