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Turbo or N/A 

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:45 am 
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SQUEAK wrote:
That being said, My mates had au series 1 xr8s.

They had standard heads, spacers under the inlet manifold, larger throttle body, and a ported maf, extarctors and a stage 1 trickflow cam and a unichip, 188rwkw.


Just a few figures on that engine:
The GT40P heads flow around 200CFM @ .500",
The Explorer manifold flows around 180CFM per runner

Theoretically, on a 6cyl you'd need to be flowing ~270CFM per cylinder to equal the 188RWKW of your friends AU XR8. And I can tell you straight away, 270CFM from a 4L head is a f**k huge job.. and thats only 188RWKW ;) Remember you're still short on displacement. This means less room for air and fuel, which means less power per stroke.

Also to hog the ports out to accomodate 270CFM will reduce airspeed at lower engine rpm, and the big loser will be street drivability.

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:47 am 
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Mate there is no need to be a d**k head about things!!!

Im just letting everyone know what im doing and ill see what happens.
Im not sure what the out come is going to be? No one does but its something I want to try!!!

f**k how do you think all the kits get built? Everything is trial and error.
And the more people say it cant be done the more I want to do it.

And I know of a ohc 6 cylinder n/a making just over 300hp at the wheels, Its a race engine in a race car, but it proves it can be done.

Also saying an auto wont cut it.....Auto will be much quicker than any manual down the quater. Might have a bit more power loss but who cares torque multiplication!!!

And with saying cops dont bother me, What I meant was with getting tubos and superchargers engineered! Whats the worst they can do defect me? Im a mechanic by trade and I have friends all through the industry who clear them for nothing.

And look at my fairmont, Those who have seen it at the drags will back me up, My car is driven everyday and everywhere, It has no cat, no mufflers straight pipe, So its loud as f**k, mini spooled diff. And I drive it hard. And there is also a cop shop at the very end of my street.

Dont go trying to act like a hero man. All im doing is letting people know what im going to try...And for any advice, After all thats what these forums are all about arnt they???

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:52 am 
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Last post wasnt to you waggin, was to shugg.

I understand what your saying, and thanks heaps for the advice, very interesting.

Im just keen to try it and see what happens.

Thanks heaps for the info.

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:54 am 
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If youre careful in the way you drive, and dont make too much noise, you could get away with no exhaust and no cat. But if you ever do get pulled over, even for a random roadworthy check, and they notice a cat missing, youll be up for dollars to replace it. That and you'll recieve a nice little fine as well. However, i say go for it. If you think you can get the power you want out of a NA six, try. And if you do succeed, then there will be a lot of astonished people, and one very smug you. But until then, its all speculation! Hurry up and start this build up :D

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:56 am 
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Out of curiosity waggin, what did you end up getting out of your 6cylinder with all that work?

And what exactly did you do and have in the engine?

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:57 am 
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Andrew J wrote:
If youre careful in the way you drive, and dont make too much noise, you could get away with no exhaust and no cat.


But why even try :!: There is no need for that s**t, not at that age where everything goes against you if you do get done.
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:01 am 
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SQUEAK wrote:
Last post wasnt to you waggin, was to shugg.

I understand what your saying, and thanks heaps for the advice, very interesting.

Im just keen to try it and see what happens.

Thanks heaps for the info.


Phew! Was worried there. I respect your burnouts :)

I'm just hoping that through my errors others can learn. I really wish I could go back 4 years and do it all again. The first thing I'd be doing is building a rock solid bottom end, low comp and then bolt on a turbo. With half the money I spent chasing N/A, i'd be doing boosted 11's.

N/A has its appeal up to the proven 160-180RWKW mark, mostly for the fact its not detectable by insurance companies or police. N/A also has a huge appeal with the simple Exh/Cam mods which are seeing people hit 140-150RWKW which is very nice. Anything beyond there becomes extremely poor bang for buck.

The only thing which turns people from boost is generally Police.. so if you arent bothered by them, i'd be going out and spending $1800 at GCG for a GT3540, talking to Snort about a manifold, getting an ECU, fuel supplies and doing 11's next week at WSID ;)

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:10 am 
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SQUEAK wrote:
Out of curiosity waggin, what did you end up getting out of your 6cylinder with all that work?

And what exactly did you do and have in the engine?


Just to further my case, I gave up on N/A and sold it all :)

Can't give out flow figures, but I can tell you that judging on my figures and how much more room was left to port and add larger valves, you're going to be hard pressed to physically make this thing flow the 270CFM i was talking about in my previous post :)

I got to the point where I was maxing out 24lb/hr injectors at WOT, and 30lb/hr injectors were just right (at 350KPA = ~34lb/hr). That indicates around 250-260 solid KW at the flywheel, which I'd translate to a very honest 180-190RWKW (maybe 220RWKW @ Croydon or C&V) ;)

Highest dyno figure spotted was at around 3500RPM, which was ~145RWKW while tuning. No power runs were ever recorded, spent approx 4 hours on the dyno doing a virgin tune on the MoTeC :)

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:11 am 
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Thanks heaps for the encouragement andrewj.

Look im not promiseing anything but im going to give it a go!!!
You just never know what could happen, and besides if I do crack that 200rwkw mark.....Im going to be one happy person!!! And there will be quiet a few people with there jaws on the ground.....Especially the ones who said it cant be done.

I thought of a turbo kit, but lag, smooth idle and the fact everyone is turboing the 6's now.....I wanted something different, something that stands out......A n/a six that idles rough has instant throttle response and blows away v8s would be different.

And a rough idle is a must......Fairmont has a pro scoop on the bonnet....And yes hole is cut, 265/50/15s under the a*** and front runners and getting dumped.

And drive line, 3000rpm stall, 3:9 diff gears with a mini spool. It will go.

How well we will have to wait and see. Im in the process of buying parts now so yeah, ill start taking pictures of the build up soon.

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:12 am 
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Andrew J wrote:
If youre careful in the way you drive, and dont make too much noise, you could get away with no exhaust and no cat.


I'd love to see you 'not make too much noice' with no exhaust fitted :D

Seriously, its not worth it. For the $10,000 fine and 2RWKW gain you could pull 300RWKW with a nice turbo kit :)

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:15 am 
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SQUEAK wrote:

I thought of a turbo kit, but lag


Lag my a***.. CHEF's home grown 4L turbo kit was pulling around 900nM of torque at 65km/hr in what I"d assume is 2nd gear.. translates to around 2500rpm ;)

Everyone else, including the strong N/A 4L's were around 250-300nM at this point :)

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:19 am 
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If you can make it dude, I will retract any contemptuouse remark made, and appologise formaly. I hope you have the money, the patience and the ability to accept defeat if the time comes around.

Hoping you don't kill you're self in the process.
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:20 am 
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Thats the biggest problem im having at the moment is getting the head to flow enough. I can get everything else big enough but the head is the major restriction, But as I said the guys im talking to said they can do my head to flow 500hp at 600thou lift. So that sounds pretty promising.

And ive worked out i going to need I think it was around 36 pound injectors, cant remember exactly. Ill find the correct figure later.

Also found that 300hp is the roughly the limit for the factory throttle body, found it was causing a massive restriction, changing to twins straight away saw a huge power increase.

And exhust, a 2.5 inch system with mufflers was restricting it badly, had 2 go a full 3inch with a single straight through race muffler, and custom headers, which took exhaust restriction down to 1psi at 6000rpm.

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:27 am 
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LOL, Not a drama shugg. We will see what happens, But ill keep everyone informed of how im going and pictures aswell.

And waggin, What I mean is, If I went turbo I would be looking at the snort stage 5 kit....Thats a huge turbo, And it will take time for it to come on boost. I know going turbo is always going to make more power, but I love n/a engines and I love a challange. And if I can run quicker than a 13.4, jmm will have been beaten....As thats what his dev 6 was running in a eb or ed falcon! Was in a mag, saying its the quickest or something. Would love to beat that......Thats why the auto is staying....Autos are much quicker than manuals at drags.

Also does anyone make a decent replacement intank fuel pump, for what I want? If so what are they worth?

 

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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:30 am 
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SQUEAK wrote:
Thats the biggest problem im having at the moment is getting the head to flow enough. I can get everything else big enough but the head is the major restriction, But as I said the guys im talking to said they can do my head to flow 500hp at 600thou lift. So that sounds pretty promising.

And ive worked out i going to need I think it was around 36 pound injectors, cant remember exactly. Ill find the correct figure later.

Also found that 300hp is the roughly the limit for the factory throttle body, found it was causing a massive restriction, changing to twins straight away saw a huge power increase.

And exhust, a 2.5 inch system with mufflers was restricting it badly, had 2 go a full 3inch with a single straight through race muffler, and custom headers, which took exhaust restriction down to 1psi at 6000rpm.


Simple rule for power additions.. it all starts with the head! I really hope they can get 500HP out of the head. If you dont come across the same restrictions that everyone else has found with the 4L, then you're home sweet. It would just be odd to think that the likes of JMM, CMS and ITS haven't already tried something similar.

What size are the TB's? 68mm or something?

Here are some figures based on Accufab TB's for what sizes can flow what.

65MM - 664CFM
70MM - 787CFM
75MM - 924CFM
105MM - 1504CFM

Work out what your flow requirement across the TB is, and find something suitable. I wouldnt recommend going dual TB just for the purpose of seeking your required flow. It adds too many extra variables, oh and turbulence.. well who knows what actually happens in the plenum with 2 TB's. Thats the issue ! :)

 

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