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What V6 to fit into a falcon? 

 

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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:53 pm 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:

But, you haven't yet convinced me against an idea like the VG30DETT.



i've seen more of those with spun big ends, then any other engine.

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:07 am 
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If the engine weights i quoted earlier provide for meaningful comparison, then it's hard to justify putting in another motor, unless you come across a truly light V6. I was under the impression that V6's were lighter than an equivalent specification I6, but given the information i found that doesn't appear to be the case, at least not always.

And if the info is meaningful, i wouldn't be surprised if a VG30DETT is actually heavier than a turboed Ford I6. The VG30DETT's seem to be renown for being heavy, a difficult swap, complex, and hard to work on. Although, at least the weight would be further back, and in my opinion it would fit well and look good in the engine bay, and provide good power and bottom end, and scope for more power.

So if somebody is keen, and who knows what reasons they might have, something might just stack up for them, one day.

 

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Last edited by relaxed_diplomacy on Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:17 am 
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schnoods wrote:
Just turbo an AU motor. All up you should have change from 5 grand if done right.

The BA/BF will need a lot of work to get the VCT running, unless you plan on running Motec or spending an eternity splicing in a BA ecu and getting it to try and work I wouldnt bother. The other solution is a set of cam gears and disabling VCT but it would defeat the purpose of shoe horning in a Ba motor.

Thanks for the info.

Quote:
I wouldnt look at a VG v6 motor, 300zx owners generally trade up because they are slugs.

The normally aspirated V6 versions have a 3.0L motor pulling a car that weighs around the same as a falcon, so yeah, not particularly flash. But that's not the twin turbo VG30DETT. I don't think they sold the twin turbo 300ZX in Australia.

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:32 am 
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EB-5LTR wrote:
LOL

take out a 302 windsor to 363 cubes, alloy block, lightweight pistons, alloy heads and carbie with paper filter and no aircon and powersteering to save weight.

oh s**t.....i spent all this money and it still kicks out when i plant it at a corner.

now i need bigger tires.....wait cant do that, the rolling diameter to pie r squared of the 275's dunlops exceed the centre weight of gravity in a falcon.

..... my mum always told me i was smarter then the other kids.

Maybe you should store the old motor in the boot?

At a guess i would say the falcon's weight distribution is 62/38. With a collection of realistic mods, i reckon you could get one 50/50. No single realistic mod will do this, but a collection all working together could do it.

Below are some Ford V8 weights. Weights are in pounds. Divide by 2.2 to get kg.

Ford 255 Windsor 468 (4)
Ford 289/302 V8 460 (168) (late 5.0s are a bit lighter)
Ford 221-302W 460 (48)
Ford Indy 255 pushrod 360 (120) all aluminum, 1963
Ford Indy 255 DOHC 400 (120) 1964, later known as Foyt Coyote V8
Ford 5.0 V8 450 (109)
Ford 5.0 V8 411 (171) 89 Mustang 5.0 GT (dry) inc: manifold, carb(?), headers and alternator. Not inc: starter, smog pump, power steering pump, AC compressor, flywheel
Ford BOSS 302 500 (48)
Ford 351 Cleveland 550 (48) (includes BOSS and Australian 302-C)
Ford 351 Windsor 510
Ford 351 Windsor 525 (48) (168)
Ford 351M-400 575 (48)

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:43 am 
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glpotter wrote:
whats wrong with a ford v6 .hasn't the taurus got av6.the probe also has a v6 3.6 might be afew at the wreckers now.

The Ford Taurus is a transverse 3.5L V6. I can't remember the power figure but at a guess no more than 160kW.

The Ford Probe is a mazda mx6, which is a mazda 626. The V6 is a transverse 2.5L, with 125kW. The mx6's go fairly hard i am told, they are only about 1150 to 1200kg and have low gearing. The probe is heavier though.

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:47 am 
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Tommeh wrote:
Put a whipper snipper motor in it, then you won't have any issue's with weight distribution.

krisisdog wrote:
Cant do that Tommeh, then it will be rear heavy....

Are you sure? If so by how much? And if so, what's wrong with a rear driver being a bit rear heavy?

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:57 am 
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data_mine wrote:
Ignoring the fact that this is a profoundly stupid idea*.

How about the V6 in the Mazda CX9. It's most likely what the Falcon will get in 2010 anyway. It's a Ford engine at heart, and you can get AWD driveline components for it too.

Convert your EB to a AWD V6.

Maybe i'll have a quick look at that motor.

Quote:
* For handling improvements, any weight saving/distribution enhancements you'd make by moving engine weight further back would still be nullified by the s**t 4x4 spec suspension setup and balloon tyres. Fix that first. A Falcon with a good suspension setup (check out Whiteline's kits) handle corners very well.

In short if you want a 4x4 with ground clearance, it's not going to handle well. If you want something that'll handle well it's going to be s**t off road. Fact.

Despite the fact that your comments aren't relevant to the thread, have you heard about height adjustable suspension? Like Airbags? And what about a tyre like a 265/65 on a 17x8 rim? Not a bad compromise in your view?

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:06 am 
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krisisdog wrote:
Why does that lighten s**t up?

I was talking about the mood of some of the participants . . .

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:14 am 
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xcabbi wrote:
Ok Calm_Diplomat, cross breeding like this in the pursuit of perfect weight distribution would only be worthwhile if:
b) you . . . had a budget of several thousand blank cheques.

Okay, yes, expensive. But that doesn't tell me much, it's a broad generalisation. It's the details that interested me most.

Quote:
Say you managed to pull it off. You still have a less than ideal suspension setup to contend with. Then you will have to convert your suspension to push/pull rod (open wheeler style). Then what? You will see how less than ideal your tintop actually is with all the flex going on. So in goes more monkey bars than the local primary school play ground. Now what? You've realised your house brick like box car has a drag coefficient greater than a whole house full of bricks. Time to alter the body work, A LOT.
Your car starts to resemble a certain type of race car but for the life of you, you can't pinpoint it. When you realise you finally turned your boxcar into a sports sedan you also realise it would have been much cheaper to buy Ol Thommo's one he had for sale just down the road. Instead you spent a few hundred thousand turning a road legal Box car into a backmarker for the sports sedans.

Okay, you're saying some mods are worth doing and some aren't, you need to stop somewhere, at least on a road car. Again though, it's the details i was after.

 

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Last edited by relaxed_diplomacy on Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:24 am 
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EB91XR6 wrote:
why not just buy a car you would be happy with,

I don't think there is one. An audi allroad might come close, not sure, haven't sat in or driven one. I would still put bigger tyres on one though, but there's not much room in the guards. A volvo xc70 is similar, but might want more power as well as bigger wheels.

Quote:
a falcon is a family sadan not a sports car and will never be, i have a EF a XC and a clio sport and the clio s**t all over both and its only a 2L

This webspace is about modifying fords.

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:28 am 
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Just put an EL motor with a super charger on it in there... :-)

There are not many motors around that you can buy a decent one for about 250-500 bucks.. but the I6 is one of them.. why mess with that..?
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:41 am 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
Tommeh wrote:
Put a whipper snipper motor in it, then you won't have any issue's with weight distribution.

krisisdog wrote:
Cant do that Tommeh, then it will be rear heavy....

Are you sure? If so by how much? And if so, what's wrong with a rear driver being a bit rear heavy?


one word - understeer.

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:50 am 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
data_mine wrote:
Ignoring the fact that this is a profoundly stupid idea*.

How about the V6 in the Mazda CX9. It's most likely what the Falcon will get in 2010 anyway. It's a Ford engine at heart, and you can get AWD driveline components for it too.

Convert your EB to a AWD V6.

Maybe i'll have a quick look at that motor.

Quote:
* For handling improvements, any weight saving/distribution enhancements you'd make by moving engine weight further back would still be nullified by the s**t 4x4 spec suspension setup and balloon tyres. Fix that first. A Falcon with a good suspension setup (check out Whiteline's kits) handle corners very well.

In short if you want a 4x4 with ground clearance, it's not going to handle well. If you want something that'll handle well it's going to be s**t off road. Fact.

Despite the fact that your comments aren't relevant to the thread, have you heard about height adjustable suspension? Like Airbags? And what about a tyre like a 265/65 on a 17x8 rim? Not a bad compromise in your view?


Airbags are far too soft to be good handling, and are really only suitable for 'hectik' adjustable height vehicles. Note I exclude the air adjustable shocks used by Fairlanes, Mercs, BMWs etc. for self leveling they do serve a purpose, but again aren't the best handling (more because of the barge like bodies they're found in).

265 wide is far too wide for a 8" wide rim (illegal infact).
65 profile sidewall will be too flexible for good handling too. Why do you think sports cars all run low profile tyres, not just because it looks good. (but they don't go stupidly low profile either). The size/profile (thus sidewall flexibility) of the tyres is an important part of the entire suspension setup. R compound racing tyres have reinforced sidewalls to reduce/control flex. R compound drag tyres have very soft sidewalls (great grip for acceleration, but would fold under on a corner)

Too hard/stiff suspension and tyres will result in the entire car bouncing over imperfections in the road resulting in loss of grip. It about balancing a firm grippy ride vs. wallowing luxury ride vs. rattle the fillings out of your teeth hectik spec ride.

 

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:56 am 
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Oh it all links back to the environment you'll be driving in too.

A race track is generally very smooth, so a stiff/hard and low suspension/tyre setup will work great providing maximum grip and control.

On regular roads, you need more compliance to deal with less than ideal conditions, you also loose outright grip.

Once you go 4x4ing you want softer tyres/suspension all over, as it's a grippier combination for soft/loose surfaces, high clearance for clearing obstacles, but on road it's a big compromise.

As you can see, there's no ideal way to do everything, pick the best one to suit what you need to do. I don't offroad, but do occasionally race at circuits, so run a firm suspension, factory spec tyres, bigger front swaybar, and factory height. It's a compromise between road and track. Should it become a full on track car, it'll get lower and harder, and R spec tyres and I'll pick up several seconds per lap with no extra power. But it'd be s**t on normal roads.

 

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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:25 pm 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
Tommeh wrote:
Put a whipper snipper motor in it, then you won't have any issue's with weight distribution.

krisisdog wrote:
Cant do that Tommeh, then it will be rear heavy....

Are you sure? If so by how much? And if so, what's wrong with a rear driver being a bit rear heavy?



It was a joke. plus as data mine said it will understeer like a pig.... and do you really need to think about the fact that you're replacing a 200kg motor with a 5kg motor........

 

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