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Why does the e-series thermostat have a tail but not the AU? 

 

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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:44 pm 
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MadMatt wrote:
The tail is there for a reason.
If the motor is running too hot, The thermostsat will fully open diverting full coolant flow to the motor.
What is more important when your moror is running hot?
Heating the cabin or cooling the motor?

In some ways i don't want to disagree with you, but are you not saying they got the AU wrong?

There is a case for the heater pipe, hoses, core, etc doing a beneficial job for the motor by cooling the coolant.

Maybe an important factor is that from the EF(?) onwards the hose joining the two heater pipes is small in diameter, meaning that more coolant will flow through the motor rather than the heater pipes, when the heater tap is off. When the heater tap is open the heater core gets full temp (good for the cabin) and also cools the coolant (good for the motor).

Maybe if you wanted to you could block off the hose joining the two pipes, so coolant only flows when the heater is on, but i think you would really want to know what you're doing before you think you know better than ford on this.

 

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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:33 pm 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
I fitted a brand new aftermarket Dayco AU thermostat to my car (non tail) and now the temp guage is reading like a pogo stick, all the time. After you cold start the motor it slowly climbs to just under half (scary), then over about 4 seconds quickly drops back to the bottom of the normal zone, then over about 10 to 15 seconds it climbs back to the same point again (scary), then drops again, and so on, ad finitum. ?

My thinking is either the thermostat is rubbish, or everything is 'okay' the problem is just that my temp guage is running off the temp sensor on the thermostat housing whereas on the AU the temp guage reads off the head temp sensor, or something else. ?


i've noticed the same behaviour with tridon aftermarket thermostats also. i find the factory ones to be the best.
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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:45 am 
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factory is so worth it, wish i got it right the first time, hoping it fixes it anyway.

 

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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:14 am 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
MadMatt wrote:
The tail is there for a reason.
If the motor is running too hot, The thermostsat will fully open diverting full coolant flow to the motor.
What is more important when your moror is running hot?
Heating the cabin or cooling the motor?

In some ways i don't want to disagree with you, but are you not saying they got the AU wrong?

There is a case for the heater pipe, hoses, core, etc doing a beneficial job for the motor by cooling the coolant.

Maybe an important factor is that from the EF(?) onwards the hose joining the two heater pipes is small in diameter, meaning that more coolant will flow through the motor rather than the heater pipes, when the heater tap is off. When the heater tap is open the heater core gets full temp (good for the cabin) and also cools the coolant (good for the motor).

Maybe if you wanted to you could block off the hose joining the two pipes, so coolant only flows when the heater is on, but i think you would really want to know what you're doing before you think you know better than ford on this.



The AU is more advanced, it uses block temp instead on water temp.
An AU ECU will know engine temp even if there is on water in the system.
It can also do cyl shutdowns to maintain a maximum tenp. Possibly even has a say in weather the heater tap is open or closed.

I believe the smaller hose between the heater hoses is to help bleed air from the system.

 

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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:38 pm 
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MadMatt wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
MadMatt wrote:
The tail is there for a reason.
If the motor is running too hot, The thermostsat will fully open diverting full coolant flow to the motor.
What is more important when your moror is running hot?
Heating the cabin or cooling the motor?

In some ways i don't want to disagree with you, but are you not saying they got the AU wrong?

There is a case for the heater pipe, hoses, core, etc doing a beneficial job for the motor by cooling the coolant.

Maybe an important factor is that from the EF(?) onwards the hose joining the two heater pipes is small in diameter, meaning that more coolant will flow through the motor rather than the heater pipes, when the heater tap is off. When the heater tap is open the heater core gets full temp (good for the cabin) and also cools the coolant (good for the motor).

Maybe if you wanted to you could block off the hose joining the two pipes, so coolant only flows when the heater is on, but i think you would really want to know what you're doing before you think you know better than ford on this.



The AU is more advanced, it uses block temp instead on water temp.
An AU ECU will know engine temp even if there is on water in the system.

That's a strong case for those with AU motors in pre-AU cars to use the head temp sensor rather than the one on the thermostat housing. If you lose coolant for example the head sender will tell you what is really happenning, whereas the thermostat sender will only go to about halfway up the temp guage and stop. I am yet to re-route mine to the head sensor.

Quote:
It can also do cyl shutdowns to maintain a maximum tenp.

Interesting, if needed we could do this to pre-AU falcons by disconnecting injectors, maybe run it as a four cylinder till you can reach help?


Quote:
Possibly even has a say in weather the heater tap is open or closed.

A good trick, and an old trick everyone can do.

Quote:
I believe the smaller hose between the heater hoses is to help bleed air from the system.

The coolant running through this wouldn't reduce the amount of flow through the motor as you may have stated earlier, it would reduce flow through the radiator. But there may not be much difference in cooling because cooling might also occur in the heater pipes.

 

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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:44 pm 
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No one, I am just making this quote up wrote:
The temperature guage only goes to half way and stops when running in an EF with no water...

I have had 3 (yes, THREE) EF's blow the heater hoses and the plastic tank at side of radiator. This results in NO WATER pretty damn quickly. The first time it happened I didn't notice as the temperature guage went up and I would have expected it to go down as water wasn't present any longer...

Other times I have run with no water (same motor as above, run with no water quite regularly - don't ask...) the temperature guage goes off the scale (HOT HOT HOT) and then dashboard starts beeping and ,.,,, Well... Not sure if car does it on purpose, or if it just seizes, but it stops running the first oppurtunity you give it.

Hint - If overheating dramatically and you need to get another kilometre in the next minute (and the reason for this is stronger than buying a new motor) just keep the revs above 1000 and DON'T LET IT GET TO EVEN THINK ABOUT STALLING. You'll have to keep the revs at 1200, then 1400, then (etc etc) as more and more of the engine overheats and starts attempting to seize....

During all of this the temperature guage still shows DAM DAM HOT. In fact, this is a credit to Ford for building a good dashboard. If I was a dashboard with that sort of heat in front of me, I'd get out and walk.


Anyway.

Once you have got to where you REALLY REALLY REALLY needed to be, turn it off real quick and walk away as if nothing is wrong. GO back to car half an hour later and take return hose off the radiator and put a slight dribble into the hose and listen to it as it gets turned to steam instantly (be careful not to put too much in, and keep face away from pipe openings........... ;)

Now, you are supposed to crank an engine over as adding cold water slowly... But - and this is a big but - at this point the motor is still mostly seized and you'll only flatten your battery, risk damaging your starter and never get it turning over anyway.

Just dribble a little water in, wait a bit, do it again, etc etc. DRIBBLE SLOWLY with heaps of breaks. The water will slowly cool down the bottom of the block and all (which is good - it is real metal, not alloy - the alloy top bit is a bit colder than the bottom once you've left it for half an hour).

By the way. After leaving it for half an hour the temperature gauge will be about half to two thirds hot. Pour a little water in and then jump back to watch the guage.... CCAPPPPOOOMMMPPPPHHH - it's poking straight up like a teenage boy at a Kylie Minogue concert.

If you take it really careful and slow you actually don't cuase much damage to the engine over than what you've already acheived through driving it with no water for the last twenty minutes.


Believe it or not this motor has done another 30,000km's and is still going strong with its new heater, radiator, hoses, taps and pumps attached.

NOTHING was replaced within motor or head, although have a sneaking suspicion that the head is a little bent and not sealing 100% to the block... But, uses virtually no water or oil and flies past most Ef - AU's that care to try testing it...


Uhm, where was I?


Oh yes -

FIENDS CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF LARIKIN BEHAVIOUR PROVING THAT THE FORD EF DOES A REASONABLE JOB OF TELLING THE WORLD IT IS HOT, EVEN WITH NO WATER.


Well. Whatever.

I ain't no mechanic, as most people will attest, but I have blown up and / or seized a helluva lot of motors.

The OFFICIAL FIEND BLOWUPABILITY VERDICT on the EF motor is GREAT. 4 out of 5 stars. If not for the fact that they blow heater hoses and rubber bits off if in the first place, you'd have to try pretty damn hard to do real damage to the engine under 100,000. Around 200,000 you should do something about the hoses that are going to fail soon. If you make it to 300,000 without changing the radiator, I'd be amazed, but happy to be proved wrong. The best thing about loosing all your water with the EF 4.0L is the simple discovery that when the kid fills an old oil container out the river you don't even need to tell the kid to pour out the last half litre of oil. (ooops) This motor seems to run beautifully having a 15w60 to water mix ratio of about 1:9.



By the time you add water injection to your fuel input, you may as well just cut out the middle man and put water in your fueltank, oil in your radiator bottle and fuel in your airbox. The bloody thing would probably still run.


AND - Believe it or not - it'll still show a reasonably good reading on the temperature gauge the whole time.

Know the motor will be HOTTER than the needle shows with no water, but the needle will go up past the limits with no water. Have done it. More than once.



Right. Don't think I need to say anything further about not being a mechanic do I?






ALSO - Some would say interestingly, others would suggest I shut the phuck up....

INTERESTINGLY - The motors are cooled MORE by having the water go through the inboard heater if you have the heater fan on and temperature set to hot.

Don't know how the opposing theory is supposed to work to be honest. You are cooling the water more, and the water then finds its way into the motor.

I not a physicist, but...............................................
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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:43 pm 
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RD wrote:
If you lose coolant for example the head sender will tell you what is really happenning, whereas the thermostat sender will only go to about halfway up the temp guage and stop

edit: 'the thermostat sender has a tendency to only go to about halfway up the temp guage and stop'

 

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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:22 pm 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
RD wrote:
If you lose coolant for example the head sender will tell you what is really happenning, whereas the thermostat sender will only go to about halfway up the temp guage and stop

edit: 'the thermostat sender has a tendency to only go to about halfway up the temp guage and stop'

OH MAN - I spent ages typing all that in and now you change it ?! :lol:
.............
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:41 pm 
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Well, if you aren't a reliable source, then i can change it back . . . ?

I started very early in the morning one day to go to sydney and pick up my wreck and drive it home. Late at night when the servo's indeed everything was shut and i was tired the temp needle climbed. It had been moving around like every other ford i had been in recently, so i was resigned to this happenning. Then it stopped at the halfway mark, so i was waiting for it to come down. I noticed a slight pinging. I told myself the engine must be hot, but it is of course going to settle down and although i should stop right now and check things i can wait and see because the guage isn't past halfway. Kept driving a few kays and then the motor stalled. Lifted the bonnet and it was very hot. The heater hose under the log had a 2" slit in it. The water must have poured out.

The next day i fixed the leak by shortening the hose and retightening with some fencing wire, and topped up the fluid from a nearby creek. It sounded like a tractor for a while. It got a few kays but water was pissing out of a welch plug. Decided i would go through over 300L and heaps of tedious filling to get the 150km home, so i got a car trailer. The engine was pretty average anyway so it was no great loss, but i would have much preferred to get home.

Moral of the story . . . STOP! don't wait. STOP! tell yourself again . . . STOP! it will only get worse, STOP. you can fix it now but another few metres and maybe not . . . STOP. cars don't hurt themselves when STOPPED by the side of the road.

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:14 pm 
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yes i had the same thing happen in my first car, a datsun 1600, many years ago...

it had a small leak in a hose and the water would last about 10km before she started to overheat...

so one day i had to drive about 20km, anyway after about the 10knm the temp was starting rise but never got to super hot on the guage. I kept going thinking its not too bad, then the temp came back down to about 1/2 way and statyed there. got to my destination 20km away and stopped. I was thinking to myself "gee these datsun motors are tough", so hwaded back without checking the water.

got about 10km back and was goijng up a hill when the power started to drop off so i put my foot down and power still kept dropping, put the clutch in to change gear and the motor just stopped. pulled over and the thing was refusing to crank over.

carefully opend the radiator and it was bone dry...not even the tiniest bit of steam came out....found an empty bottle in the boot and went over to someones garden tap and filled up....poured into the radiator and seconds later i could hear cracking sounds and then water pouring out the motor and onto the road....one very dead motor!!!

moral : water temp sensors need water to sense temperature...

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:20 pm 
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I do agree... If you in the least bit care about your engine then *DO NOT* under any circumstances follow my example, above.

I was purely showing the capability of this 4L inline six to do a lot better than any other motor I have ever owned in times of severe stress. The only one that has ever come close was a PRINCESS 2 Litre Tranverse 4 front wheel drive auto that actually set fire to itself three times (pulling over and throwing sand into the fire and waiting half an hour got us moving and home...)

This thing got so bad that it pre-ignited and when you finished with the car you pulled the key out and it sat there for 10-15 minutes firing and spluttering and backfiring...

And yes - water temp sensors need water... Damn right. However, the amount of heat in the pipe and getting to the sensor is such that it may still present a reasonable reading. By reasonable I mean exactly what the Relaxed Brother said --- It fools you into thinking everything is okay for a while.

The simple fact that my one went way way hot on the needle with no water must have meant it was actually WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY (etc etc) HOT.


Best thing to do with a car with major watering issues would be (in my opinion, everyone knows I ain't no mechanic.....) to leave the bloody heater on, or at least turn it on and check it is blowing hot air regularly. You can notice the hot air produced by the heater start to diminish in direct correlation to how little water you have left.


GOGETTA --- One thing --- I've never poured cold water straight into a hot hot hot empty radiator as for some reason have always dribbled straight into the block side of the equation. SLOWLY... Anyways, what the hell - if you run a car with no water, the temperature gauge can be relevant, but by no means reliable - totally agree...



What the heck... If you do seize an engine to overheating, LEAVE IT FOR HALF AN HOUR....

Right, am damn sure this is so far off the original topic that even I am finding it silly. Never meant to get to involved with the whole thing - just posted the above as an attempt to provide slightly humourous "aside"


I have seized and / or blown big end bearings on every combustion based motor I have ever owned. This shows commitment.
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:42 pm 
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sounds like uve got the record for s**t ownership and abuse...

has NZ got some weird cars or what.....a princess 2lt, what the frig is that!

 

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Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:17 pm 
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princess . . . my best guess is camry, or celica derivative. I can't think of an earlier transverse 2L four cylinder front wheel drive toyota, but i'm not an expert there, could easily be wrong.

 

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Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:22 pm 
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gogetta wrote:
sounds like uve got the record for s**t ownership and abuse...

has NZ got some weird cars or what.....a princess 2lt, what the frig is that!


relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
princess . . . my best guess is camry, or celica derivative. I can't think of an earlier transverse 2L four cylinder front wheel drive toyota, but i'm not an expert there, could easily be wrong.


British Leyland / Austin Princess 2 litre. Prone to overheating a little, and the later models actually had heat shield between the head and the carby. Was the first car in the world to have a recess for the windscreen wipers and a bag suspension set up of some sort! It won TOP GEAR's old Brit shoot out - mainly as it was the only car to still park on a hill with its own handbrake.

Owned two of them actually.


Have owned three EF FORDs, so am now looking at AU motors with interest, which is why I originally looked at this AU vs EF thermo thread. AU motor for $300 with less than 100,000k on it? Man - My old EF could run for another twenty years with that in it.


s**t ownership and abuse- Yeah, if there was any sort of a competition, enter me. I've grown out of it tho - not having infinite dollars and learning to appreciate engineering (not to mention luckily still having a relatively intact torso with limbs that can move independantly) does that to a bloke eventually.


There is a large list of motors that have passed away during my tenure behind the wheel or in the saddle. For all their frailties, I am mighty impressed with this bloody 4 litre inline 6 that you Aussie blokes put together in the 90's.
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:25 am 
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Somehow my mind added toyota. I've made a few mistakes lately. I think my cars ongoing failings are taking a toll. I look forward to having a break, but it's a little while off yet. At least if the car's a reliable drive, but now it's not due to the trans. There don't seem to be any trans experts here at the moment.

 

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