Fordmods Logo

Power window auto up concept, can it be done?? 

 

Page 1 of 1 [ 11 posts ] 

 
 Post subject: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:01 pm 
Tyre Shredder
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 340

Joined: 4th Nov 2009

Ride: EFII Fairmont XR8

Location: hobart
TAS, Australia

Had a thought, I want to see if it would work?

I want the windows to wind up whenever the interior lights come on, so whenever i open my door to get out of the car all the windows would start going back up.

Is it as simple as running a couple of wires from the nearest courtesy light to my center console where the window switches are?

The courtesy lights go out after 30 or so seconds so that means the window motors aren't pushing up the whole time, maybe i need to hook up a timer that makes them go out after 10 seconds?

I have seen the tech doco with the thing you use, but that costs upwards of $100 to do all the windows. This will be basically free.

Just thought, id need to add a switch to stop the motors from winding up when i re enter the car, as this would stop me from winding them down. Ie the switch would allow my to stop any current from interior lights.

So basically I want interior lights wired to my window 'up' terminal on my switches.
Thoughts?

 

_________________

Image

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:27 pm 
Technical Contributor
Offline
User avatar

Age: 28

Posts: 3705

Joined: 27th Sep 2006

Gallery: 20 images

Ride: ED Falcon

Power: 133 rwkw

Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

Hi Mate...

If I were you, I reckon the easiest way to do this would be use a wire out of the door lock actuators... This way when you look the doors they wind up...

Mine is currently configured so that when my doors are unlocked the windows have power and I can wind up and wind down without keys in the ignition... When you lock the doors the relay turns off and they stop working...

I was considering something like this but the only reason I steered clear was that often when I park I leave my windows down an inch to allow hot air to escape (because even when your parked in the shade the seem to get bloody hot)

and this sort of concept would be near impossible to get right with a limit switch somewhere...

Timers will not work for controlling this... The reason being you could set it right and as time goes on (say you don't lubricate your slides every so often) well your windows slow down as the resistance increases don't they? So you'd always be increasing the timer...

The only way I can see these kits working is with some serious smarts and some CT's (current transformers) With all motors when the stall the draw many times their rated full load current... So that when you windows stop (for whatever reason) the current rises dramatically and the CT senses this and tell the circuit to turn off... This makes it fail safe... No matter how long your windows take to wind up (so long as they don't draw too much current and still trip the circuit...

Basiclly the trick is developing a circuit which has the ability to sense the current flow to the windows and be configured to switch off...

All sounds simple in concept but building a current sensing circuit that something will react with is out of my electronics league... I can only work with basic IC's and have no experiences with PIC's but the size of the circuit board (if possible) would be huge and time to develop such a thing... maybe with a PIC it could be done easier because when them you upload a program into them on how to react to certain inputs... basically replacing all the hardware with software... Most PIC's require to be programmed in assembler language and again I cannot program in this language...

Sorry I can be much help but hopefully I have given you some insight... Like I said I liked the idea of this myself but to get it to work flawlessly you can't use timers, they will be more a pain than anything else... plus I often like my windows down an inch to vent hot air and to get them to stop always in the same spot really requires a limit switch as timers could land them all over...

This is my understanding anyway...

Anyone else with a better electronics understand care to help?

Cheers...

 

_________________

93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:42 pm 
Tyre Shredder
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 340

Joined: 4th Nov 2009

Ride: EFII Fairmont XR8

Location: hobart
TAS, Australia

timmytimtim wrote:
Hi Mate...

If I were you, I reckon the easiest way to do this would be use a wire out of the door lock actuators... This way when you look the doors they wind up...

Mine is currently configured so that when my doors are unlocked the windows have power and I can wind up and wind down without keys in the ignition... When you lock the doors the relay turns off and they stop working...

I was considering something like this but the only reason I steered clear was that often when I park I leave my windows down an inch to allow hot air to escape (because even when your parked in the shade the seem to get bloody hot)

and this sort of concept would be near impossible to get right with a limit switch somewhere...

Timers will not work for controlling this... The reason being you could set it right and as time goes on (say you don't lubricate your slides every so often) well your windows slow down as the resistance increases don't they? So you'd always be increasing the timer...

The only way I can see these kits working is with some serious smarts and some CT's (current transformers) With all motors when the stall the draw many times their rated full load current... So that when you windows stop (for whatever reason) the current rises dramatically and the CT senses this and tell the circuit to turn off... This makes it fail safe... No matter how long your windows take to wind up (so long as they don't draw too much current and still trip the circuit...

Basiclly the trick is developing a circuit which has the ability to sense the current flow to the windows and be configured to switch off...

All sounds simple in concept but building a current sensing circuit that something will react with is out of my electronics league... I can only work with basic IC's and have no experiences with PIC's but the size of the circuit board (if possible) would be huge and time to develop such a thing... maybe with a PIC it could be done easier because when them you upload a program into them on how to react to certain inputs... basically replacing all the hardware with software... Most PIC's require to be programmed in assembler language and again I cannot program in this language...

Sorry I can be much help but hopefully I have given you some insight... Like I said I liked the idea of this myself but to get it to work flawlessly you can't use timers, they will be more a pain than anything else... plus I often like my windows down an inch to vent hot air and to get them to stop always in the same spot really requires a limit switch as timers could land them all over...

This is my understanding anyway...

Anyone else with a better electronics understand care to help?

Cheers...


Top effort with the reply, thanks a bunch.

If I were you, I reckon the easiest way to do this would be use a wire out of the door lock actuators... This way when you look the doors they wind up...

Sounds really good but unfortunately I have a habit of using my interior door lock switch whilst im driving so it wouldn't be any good for my circumstances.

Mine is currently configured so that when my doors are unlocked the windows have power and I can wind up and wind down without keys in the ignition... When you lock the doors the relay turns off and they stop working...???

I'm not clear on this part sorry. Are you saying that your windows are functional without your keys in the ignition? Mine is an EF fairmont and this is what it does from factory, for 30 seconds or so.

So that when you windows stop (for whatever reason) the current rises dramatically and the CT senses this and tell the circuit to turn off... This makes it fail safe... No matter how long your windows take to wind up (so long as they don't draw too much current and still trip the circuit...

So would the current rise dramatically in the time span in which the window reaches the top or closed position, until the time it takes for the interior lights to switch off (20 seconds tops).

Just realized the lights go off when doors are locked

So it would need to go up by the time i get out of the car before i need to lock it. 10 seconds should be enough.


Thanks for the help again.

 

_________________

Image

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:48 pm 
Tyre Shredder
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 340

Joined: 4th Nov 2009

Ride: EFII Fairmont XR8

Location: hobart
TAS, Australia

Also with the door actuator idea, it would mean the windows would start winding up if you unlock too, wouldn't it?

Same as the interior lights i suppose!

 

_________________

Image

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:15 pm 
Technical Contributor
Offline
User avatar

Age: 28

Posts: 3705

Joined: 27th Sep 2006

Gallery: 20 images

Ride: ED Falcon

Power: 133 rwkw

Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

Top effort with the reply, thanks a bunch.

Quote:
If I were you, I reckon the easiest way to do this would be use a wire out of the door lock actuators... This way when you look the doors they wind up...

Sounds really good but unfortunately I have a habit of using my interior door lock switch whilst im driving so it wouldn't be any good for my circumstances.


This only stops people getting into the car you know, doesn't stop people getting out (unless EF/EL's have a dead lock :?) as the door handles still work

Quote:
Mine is currently configured so that when my doors are unlocked the windows have power and I can wind up and wind down without keys in the ignition... When you lock the doors the relay turns off and they stop working...???

I'm not clear on this part sorry. Are you saying that your windows are functional without your keys in the ignition? Mine is an EF fairmont and this is what it does from factory, for 30 seconds or so.


Sorry forgot EF's do this... The advantage of mine is not so much when you get out but when you unlock it and get into the car the passenger can wind down the windows while the drive is loading the boot, etc.

Quote:
So that when you windows stop (for whatever reason) the current rises dramatically and the CT senses this and tell the circuit to turn off... This makes it fail safe... No matter how long your windows take to wind up (so long as they don't draw too much current and still trip the circuit...

So would the current rise dramatically in the time span in which the window reaches the top or closed position, until the time it takes for the interior lights to switch off (20 seconds tops).


The current only rises when the motor stops (ie the window its the top and can't go any further... This current can sort of be seen, if you turn your car on (motor not running) and watching you volt gauge wind the windows up and see what happens when it hits the top... You should find it drops a volt or 2... This is a good example of the extra current causing a voltage drop...

You would have to use a timer so that when it gets a ground pulse off the doors opening that it counts and keeps the circuit one for 30 secs or so, this way even if the lights go off then it keeps winding on up the windows...

One advantage of using CT's is that when you open the door the windows try to wind up and cause the go nowhere (already up) the current rises and the circuit stops it almost straight away (no damage done)...

The advantage of the door locks though is that when you hit lock, it powers the circuit (or earths and the actuators have both functions) and it works only while the doors are locked, as soon as you unlock them then it turns off (doesn't work when you open the door to get in)... No good if you drive round with locked doors though...

Quote:
Just realized the lights go off when doors are locked

So it would need to go up by the time i get out of the car before i need to lock it. 10 seconds should be enough.


answer covered above...

One other thing I just thought of...

To be fail safe, you have to get this auto winder to disconnect the interior window switches while its winding so that if someone is sitting in the passenger seat and you go to get out, their window will start to go up and they go hang on this I don't want this and try to press down on the interior buttons you'll have yourself a short circuit and hence a blown circuit breaker there my friend (EF/EL have breakers like ED?) it will reset but if this continually happens your not doing anything a favour... IT will burn out all the contacts everywhere coz power windows are such a high current thing...

So to be safe so that it can't happen, when it engages it needs to disconnect all other switches...

One other thing if your timing it is to remember exactly how long it takes to wind up four windows at the same time, esp with the car not running, a lot slower... Again because of the massive current 4 of these motors draw it causes a massive voltage drop in the car...

Cheers...

 

_________________

93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:23 pm 
Tyre Shredder
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 340

Joined: 4th Nov 2009

Ride: EFII Fairmont XR8

Location: hobart
TAS, Australia

This only stops people getting into the car you know, doesn't stop people getting out (unless EF/EL's have a dead lock :?) as the door handles still work

Haha, yes I know. I meant that If i want my windows down whilst driving i cannot have my doors locked as they would start winding up when the actuator fired.

heir window will start to go up and they go hang on this I don't want this and try to press down on the interior buttons you'll have yourself a short circuit and hence a blown circuit breaker there my friend (EF/EL have breakers like ED?) it will reset but if this continually happens your not doing anything a favour... IT will burn out all the contacts everywhere coz power windows are such a high current thing...

Ahh this could be a problem. I didn't think that this would cause a short circuit?? If so then why is it fine when someone in the rear seat presses windows down and the driver presses the same switch to go up from the centre console? I doubt it would short then?

 

_________________

Image

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:36 pm 
Technical Contributor
Offline
User avatar

Age: 28

Posts: 3705

Joined: 27th Sep 2006

Gallery: 20 images

Ride: ED Falcon

Power: 133 rwkw

Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

Quote:
her window will start to go up and they go hang on this I don't want this and try to press down on the interior buttons you'll have yourself a short circuit and hence a blown circuit breaker there my friend (EF/EL have breakers like ED?) it will reset but if this continually happens your not doing anything a favour... IT will burn out all the contacts everywhere coz power windows are such a high current thing...

Ahh this could be a problem. I didn't think that this would cause a short circuit?? If so then why is it fine when someone in the rear seat presses windows down and the driver presses the same switch to go up from the centre console? I doubt it would short then?
[/quote]


The reason being is there is only two wires to the motor... One way one is positive and the other negative, and the swap for other direction, if you press both buttons both wires get both positive and negative and hence your short circuit...

I can't answer your question 100% here as I only have power front windows and have never looked into how power rear's work... Its my understanding if you hit up and someone in the back seat hits down the window goes up yes?

That's be cause Ford has incorporated that when the console switch is being used the rear door switch is disconnected, often people's windows won't work and it is sometimes because one switch is unplugged, however it is that they work it requires both switches and the "off" button to be connected all together... Like I said I've never studied it, so that is all I know...

Same deal with modern vehicles where the master is on the drivers door and the passenger behaves the same way as the rear doors... I'll probably never have power rears and as such will probably never know how it is that they work... It has to be built into the master switch somehow... Like the buttons in the doors run to the master and then back to the door to work... Not 100% sure though...

Either way you have to incorporate the same thing to avoid this problem...

 

_________________

93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:53 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Age: 33

Posts: 930

Joined: 6th Nov 2004

Ride: EB SXR6 | ED XR8 Sprint

Location: Sydney
NSW, Australia

My EF's sunroof would close when you would lock the door with the fob, or push the sniper button in on the door. This became annoying when my arm would accidently hit the sniper button on the door while driving!

a neat mod to have though... saves you time...

 

_________________

EB SXR6. ED XR8 Sprint.

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:28 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 1427

Joined: 21st May 2005

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

thepistonhead wrote:
This only stops people getting into the car you know, doesn't stop people getting out (unless EF/EL's have a dead lock :?) as the door handles still work

Haha, yes I know. I meant that If i want my windows down whilst driving i cannot have my doors locked as they would start winding up when the actuator fired.

heir window will start to go up and they go hang on this I don't want this and try to press down on the interior buttons you'll have yourself a short circuit and hence a blown circuit breaker there my friend (EF/EL have breakers like ED?) it will reset but if this continually happens your not doing anything a favour... IT will burn out all the contacts everywhere coz power windows are such a high current thing...

Ahh this could be a problem. I didn't think that this would cause a short circuit?? If so then why is it fine when someone in the rear seat presses windows down and the driver presses the same switch to go up from the centre console? I doubt it would short then?

You could get around this by adding a small circuit to cancel the auto-up while there is ignition or accessory power. That way it will only work when you turn off the car and lock the doors with the remote.

There's also this tech doco to read... documents.php?d=6

 

_________________

EL Fairmont Ghia - Manual - Supercharged
- The Car
- The Headlights

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:33 pm 
Tyre Shredder
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 340

Joined: 4th Nov 2009

Ride: EFII Fairmont XR8

Location: hobart
TAS, Australia

MADXF wrote:
thepistonhead wrote:
This only stops people getting into the car you know, doesn't stop people getting out (unless EF/EL's have a dead lock :?) as the door handles still work

Haha, yes I know. I meant that If i want my windows down whilst driving i cannot have my doors locked as they would start winding up when the actuator fired.

heir window will start to go up and they go hang on this I don't want this and try to press down on the interior buttons you'll have yourself a short circuit and hence a blown circuit breaker there my friend (EF/EL have breakers like ED?) it will reset but if this continually happens your not doing anything a favour... IT will burn out all the contacts everywhere coz power windows are such a high current thing...

Ahh this could be a problem. I didn't think that this would cause a short circuit?? If so then why is it fine when someone in the rear seat presses windows down and the driver presses the same switch to go up from the centre console? I doubt it would short then?

You could get around this by adding a small circuit to cancel the auto-up while there is ignition or accessory power. That way it will only work when you turn off the car and lock the doors with the remote.

There's also this tech doco to read... documents.php?d=6


Yeah I would do something like that but apparently my concept cannot be done fullstop.

That tech doc is very outdated, have not been able to find the module, and it costs an arm and a leg for what it does.

Would be great if someone knew some where that was selling it?

 

_________________

Image

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Power window auto up concept, can it be done??
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 pm 
Technical Contributor
Offline
User avatar

Age: 28

Posts: 3705

Joined: 27th Sep 2006

Gallery: 20 images

Ride: ED Falcon

Power: 133 rwkw

Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

I'll have a poke around for you... I saw one for sale somewhere a while back, can't remember who had it...

Cheers,
Tim

 

_________________

93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:
Sort by  
 Page 1 of 1  [ 11 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

 

 

It is currently Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:14 am All times are UTC + 11 hours

 

 

(c)2014 Total Web Solutions Australia - Australian Web Hosting and Domain Names