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Power Window Circuit - Overload Protection? 

 

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 Post subject: Power Window Circuit - Overload Protection?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Do the E series have overload protection if a window button were to be held in for an extended time? Is there a self resetting circuit breaker, or ballast resistor? The Ellery's I have does not contain a schematic for this.

I'm getting 4 window winder gearboxes and motors from Oatley Electronics for $18 (CHEAP!), and will be modifying my manual winders to accept these. I want to do away with the E series switches that seem to arc and die quite regularly, and use relays instead. I want to use overkill rated relays, so does anyone know what the standard switch rating is? I want to safely assume that doubling the switch rating will prevent future problems with the relays.

The motors are rated at around 2 amps, so some 10A relays should work trouble free for years, and make adding other options later on (auto wind up/down) a breeze.

 

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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:02 pm 
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The only overload protection features that I'm aware of are the 30A circuit breaker in the fuse panel, and the overload protectors in the motors themselves.
The factory motors draw around 10A under load typically (upwards).
I think the protection in the motors may be a bimetal strip - not too sure. I'm stripping down some motors soon, so I'll keep a look out.

I've fitted bypass relays to the front windows in both my cars, as they're used the most often. The least complicated system I could come up with was 2 relays (1x DPDT + 1 SPST) per window.

 

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97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:09 pm 
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I was expecting i'd need to use 2x SPDT for each window - any reason why a DPDT was needed?

Hopefully these motors have overload protection, if not i'll be getting a autoresetting CB from jaycar.

Will "doc it up" if its successfull :)

 

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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Well I retained the factory switches (the current through them is relay coil type capacity now) - if you have a look at figs 11,12 & 13 of http://www.fordmods.com/forums/documents.php?doc=81 this shows you the layout and switching arrangement of the switches.

As I say (without drawing the diagram), the setup I come up with was the best my way of thinking could come up with.

The winder drum on the manual winders is a fair bit smaller than the power units drums.

 

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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:32 pm 
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now I follow. I'll be running my own loom etc, so each door will get 5 wires going into it if I have the switches on the door. The rear doors won't be wired through the front doors for interlocking - their connection will just be disconnected from the relay bank entirely.

I intend to hook up the windows to my extra alarm channels, so relay control for each door is the go in my situation.

 

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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:08 pm 
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Your setup should be very interesting.
I'm a bit concerned that your motors are only 2A - I hope they'll have the torque needed to lift the windows - I suppose the gearing would be setup to accomodate this.
I have fitted auto up winder units (from ebay - 4 window control units were $30) recently, but did have issues as my rears were aftermarket (preslite), and did draw more current than the factory Rockwell units, so a fully down window would only wind half up.
Luckily I did have a pair of Rockwell rears, which auto wound up fine. Just something to be aware of with aftermarket units and auto winders.

 

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97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:47 pm 
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Yeah, it could be a complete waste of money, but my window guides etc are in good nick, and wind up fairly easy. Maybe the common supply wasn't up to winding all 4 at once and needs to be heavier guage. I'll just have to wait and see - this all might come to a grinding halt if theres no physical room to put the motors. I plan on moving the manual winders so they are behind the arm rests, and using the hollows of the rests to house the bulge of the motors.

 

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EB II Sedan <--- R.I.P. (Rest in pieces - gone to the wreckers for $50...... bargain!)

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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:09 am 
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I just wonder whether you're better off hunting on Ebay for some cheap motors - strip them down, give them a service. Out of the motors I have here, I haven't found any that were in bad shape - cables, well, a different story.
If they're the Factory Rockwell ones, you'll find the manual winder cables and conduit will swap straight over - they are slightly different lengths, but that's no problem. The rails and slider are identical as well.
Found this out today - original powered unit cables were knackered, the manual unit ones were perfect - easy swap.
You'll need to elongate the door skin mounting holes as the motor will sit slightly different.
As I say, the power and manual units need to be the Factory fitted Rockwell type.

BTW: The auto winder units I got wind one window at a time.

 

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97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:16 pm 
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Got my winders the other day! They have Toyota stamped on the side of them, and look and feel pretty powerfull. I've disassembled the rear drivers side door to test. Came up with a good way to connect them to the manual winders with a bit of cutting and disassembly of the drums, but so far so good!

I'm using epoxy steel (selly's KneadIt) to make a spider to join the toothed gear of the motor to the modified drum (without the original winder spindle or anti roll down spring), and so far everything looks like it will fit quite neatly. Haven't checked symmetry of each door, so there may be minor hickups later on.

Need to buy a tap for the gearboxes, as the holes aren't threaded. I'll then have one reg ready to throw in, which will have standoffs between the skin and the original 3 point bracket to accomodate for the motor.

All in all, its going to be a good little project, and at $18 per door plus relays etc, its going to be worth my time.

Pics will be up when the first motor is up and running, but its probably too ambitious of a project to make into a docco.

 

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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:22 pm 
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Snap0964 - I don't suppose you have any pics of the disassembled regs. I was playing with these ones, and with the drum on the motor, they are impossible to stop. I think the pitch of the worm gear is considerably greater than the ford ones. can you tell me how many teeth the word gears have, and their rough diameter? Witht he torque these toyota ones supply, I might trade the power for some speed and make them wind at 2:1 speed. I'll have the fastest windows in the west :D

I don't know how the drums are going to fare up against the torque of these things, but i'll soon know once they rip the cable out of the riser.

Another question - how much force do you need to apply to prevent the window from going up on the standard regs?

 

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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:37 pm 
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Most importantly - are the manual drums a different diameter from the electric ones! I think the best option would be to make my own custom drums, which would give limosine speed windows :)

 

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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:41 pm 
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EBGizmo wrote:
Snap0964 - I don't suppose you have any pics of the disassembled regs.?
No I don't mate - can get them over the weekend though.

EBGizmo wrote:
I was playing with these ones, and with the drum on the motor, they are impossible to stop. I think the pitch of the worm gear is considerably greater than the ford ones. can you tell me how many teeth the word gears have, and their rough diameter? Witht he torque these toyota ones supply, I might trade the power for some speed and make them wind at 2:1 speed. I'll have the fastest windows in the west :D?
The factory units are bit of a b**ch to disassemble - particularly the motors.

EBGizmo wrote:
Another question - how much force do you need to apply to prevent the window from going up on the standard regs?
Don't know with the manual winders, would be a lot I'd think - powereds don't need too much force.

Key thing with your selector switch - does it earth both sides of the motor when the switch is off, as per the factory switches??
If it doesn't, you'll find they'll be some inertia after the motor is switched off, otherwise, the earthing should stop it dead.

 

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97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:42 pm 
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EBGizmo wrote:
Most importantly - are the manual drums a different diameter from the electric ones! I think the best option would be to make my own custom drums, which would give limosine speed windows :)
Manuals are smaller than the powered drums.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:27 pm 
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Yeah, i'll be configuring the NC poles of two SPDT relays to negative, the NO to positive, and the commons to the motor poles. That way there willl be an electric brake.

How much bigger are the electric drums compared to the manuals? I'm going to make my prototype drum 200% more in circumference, as I don'
t want the window going up much faster than 1.5 seconds. These motors with the manual drums worked out 5.5 rotations and 3 seconds

 

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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 10:49 pm 
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Manual drums are 29mm diam.
Powered drums are 51mm diam.
I didn't check out the worms in the powered units - the motors are difficult to remove in the rockwells - brush pigtails are very short, so are hard to install while putting the motor back together.
I can time how long for full up and full down though - then I suppose you could average this, and will give you an idea on speeds, etc. You can then figure out how many rotations the drums do on full travel.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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