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EF on gas injection, power? 

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:25 am 
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You definately need a retune if it is that bad. Is it dedicated gas or dual fuel?

If dual fuel unless you run two different tunes there will be a difference in power no matter what gas system you use; the restrictive systems generally used are only half the problem.

You still have the fact that gas as a fuel has less energy than petrol, and should be run at higher compressions and with more timing than petrol (which it can be due to its higher octane rating) to achieve similar power. When running dual fuel you won't ever get a compression ideal for both unless you are willing to run higher than 98 octane fuel, and while you can add timing this can only account for so much.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:30 am 
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bushmechanic wrote:
hi dave, the system installed is full sequential a.e.b / omvl.
it goes like a cut cat.


I'm very familiar with the system as it is the same system that is installed on one of our cars.

What I'm trying to say is that with an E-series Falcon, you don't have the advantage of sequential petrol injection to begin with, so the advantage of an injected LPG system over a conventional system would be minimal.

Regards,
Dave

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:36 am 
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skidder wrote:
If dual fuel unless you run two different tunes there will be a difference in power no matter what gas system you use; the restrictive systems generally used are only half the problem.


I can't agree. We have three cars with three different LPG systems (one Gas Injection and two Liquid Injection) and all three run as well on gas as they do on petrol. While there is a slight fuel consumption penalty, the power curves of all three engines basically follow the petrol curve. Yes, LPG technology has reached that stage.

Quote:
You still have the fact that gas as a fuel has less energy than petrol, and should be run at higher compressions and with more timing than petrol (which it can be due to its higher octane rating) to achieve similar power. When running dual fuel you won't ever get a compression ideal for both unless you are willing to run higher than 98 octane fuel, and while you can add timing this can only account for so much.


Nah, the problem with upping the compression ratio is FUEL QUALITY. While the engine may operate quite happily on 100% propane (which has limited availability, especially within metro areas), your average LPG mix will cause the engine to ping and in cases where engines are fitted with knock sensors, you end up back at 'square one'.

I would say that 75% of the problem with conventional LPG systems is related to airflow restriction, followed closely by the inaccuracy, inefficiency and poor responsiveness of single-point fuel metering.

Regards,
Dave

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:36 am 
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do you have the cable, software & dongle to tune it properly?
im trying to get the gear from the U.K.
noone i know has it here in OZ
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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:17 am 
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bushmechanic wrote:
do you have the cable, software & dongle to tune it properly?
im trying to get the gear from the U.K.
noone i know has it here in OZ


I have the software to tune the system. You will need to buy a dongle and cable from overseas or directly from Sprint Gas.

Regards,
Dave

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:00 am 
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Are the dongle cables typically for a RS232 serial port ?? , or do they have a facility to plug into a std USB 2.0 port also??
I'm assuming serial port cables will require a USB adapter since most recent laptops may not have a serial port.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:17 am 
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heres what it says on the web site http://www.fesautogas.co.uk/dreamm.htm
**** Please note that this new software will not work with the AEB made USB lead. ****
**** It will only work with the AEB serial lead on your PC's serial port, or the serial lead on an independent USB adaptor ****
**** If you don't have the serial lead with or without the independent USB adaptor - DO NOT load this software ****
*** If you use this latest edition software on Version B or C hardwires and have not updated the firmware you will get error 2 connection messages. ***
Do not use this 5.0.8.258.cad software below if your ECU is not version B or C spec ECU’s. Click here to get original version – (4.7.4) for these earlier non matrix ECU’s

i ordered the serial cable....thats what the salesman recommended
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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:08 pm 
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking - I have read there can be issues with serial to USB adaptors.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:49 pm 
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lol..
you would hope he has had it sorted by now..lol..
bugs last post in this thread was 2 1/2 years ago... nice thread mine.. :lol: :lol:

but still a good thread!!!
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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:09 pm 
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TROYMAN wrote:
lol..
you would hope he has had it sorted by now..lol..
bugs last post in this thread was 2 1/2 years ago... nice thread mine.. :lol: :lol:

but still a good thread!!!


I wish I had noticed the mining before posting. :roll:

PoweredByCNG wrote:
Quote:
You still have the fact that gas as a fuel has less energy than petrol, and should be run at higher compressions and with more timing than petrol (which it can be due to its higher octane rating) to achieve similar power. When running dual fuel you won't ever get a compression ideal for both unless you are willing to run higher than 98 octane fuel, and while you can add timing this can only account for so much.


Nah, the problem with upping the compression ratio is FUEL QUALITY. While the engine may operate quite happily on 100% propane (which has limited availability, especially within metro areas), your average LPG mix will cause the engine to ping and in cases where engines are fitted with knock sensors, you end up back at 'square one'.

I would say that 75% of the problem with conventional LPG systems is related to airflow restriction, followed closely by the inaccuracy, inefficiency and poor responsiveness of single-point fuel metering.

Regards,
Dave


True, I guess it depends on availability. I have only driven one car running dual fuel that was comparable on both, it ran injection but also had a whole new ignition system so it could take advantage of the timing.

The fact gas as a fuel has less energy cannot be changed though (unless different blends were to be used), and I don't think I could justify spending so much on an injection setup unless I had an engine to suit and was running dedicated gas (which would be fine in my area as we have servo's with high % propane).

 

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EVL098 wrote:
Cramping in the hand from having it on your Wang for an excessive period of time is a definate con.
Seriously do people google "f**k up modifications for Fords owned by Jews" and get linked straight to this site nowadays?

AU,factory fitted tickford kit/IRS, t5,Sports ryder/KYB: gone.

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:02 pm 
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I have a friend who is today looking for a gas conversion for his 2005 BA Falcon MkII XR6 and was quoted $3300 for a mixer ring setup or $4000 for an injected setup. The outlay for an injected system is only $700 more than for mixer so therefore the additional cost isn't that much of a factor any more and the extra enjoyment and reliability of the injected system will be much appreciated.

Regards,
Dave

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:46 pm 
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PoweredByCNG wrote:
bushmechanic wrote:
hi dave, the system installed is full sequential a.e.b / omvl.
it goes like a cut cat.


I'm very familiar with the system as it is the same system that is installed on one of our cars.

What I'm trying to say is that with an E-series Falcon, you don't have the advantage of sequential petrol injection to begin with, so the advantage of an injected LPG system over a conventional system would be minimal.

Regards,
Dave


The advanatage to injected gas is less fuel consumption on LPG, compared to the traditional mixer setups. My mum has a well maintained factory LPG setup on her ED futura, and it uses about 15/100 on lpg with mum driving it like my mum does. I can drive my eb a lot harder & use no more fuel, i've got a manual & i see 4000rpm quite often. :mrgreen:

As for the BA gas quotes - i didn't think they could fit mixer ring systems to them, due to emissions compliance requirements.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:43 pm 
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ToranaGuy wrote:
The advanatage to injected gas is less fuel consumption on LPG, compared to the traditional mixer setups. My mum has a well maintained factory LPG setup on her ED futura, and it uses about 15/100 on lpg with mum driving it like my mum does. I can drive my eb a lot harder & use no more fuel, i've got a manual & i see 4000rpm quite often. :mrgreen:


Yes I understand that, but the difference in economy between a mixer-based and injected system on an E-series is nowhere near as big as on an AU or B-series as the engines in these use sequential injection.

Quote:
As for the BA gas quotes - i didn't think they could fit mixer ring systems to them, due to emissions compliance requirements.


There are plenty of emissions-certified mixer systems for BAs (e.g. Sprint Gas/OMVL, IMPCO).

Regards,
Dave

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:46 am 
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PoweredByCNG wrote:
Yes I understand that, but the difference in economy between a mixer-based and injected system on an E-series is nowhere near as big as on an AU or B-series as the engines in these use sequential injection.

Quote:
As for the BA gas quotes - i didn't think they could fit mixer ring systems to them, due to emissions compliance requirements.


There are plenty of emissions-certified mixer systems for BAs (e.g. Sprint Gas/OMVL, IMPCO).

Regards,
Dave


Maybe so for the E series, but there is still a good difference, i've found my fuel economy about 20-25% better than my mums ED. Car's differ a bit, mine being heavier Ghia, converted to manual, a few performance mods, wider tyres, stereo, i've got a GT body kit, but i don't think that would make much difference to economy..... Mums is stock Auto, stock rims, stock tyre size. Not as many electrics & no body kit so probably 50-100kg lighter.

There are now emissions certified mixer systems for the BA's? Wow, i remember a couple years ago asking around about mixer type conversion for a mate who has a BA, he was trying to be a real tight ar$e, and nobody would quote, the excuse i got at the time was they couldn't due to emissions reasons. That must have changed, but why would anyone bother with such an out dated system on such a modern car? He ended up getting an injection system fit, and it's power & economy now makes him wonder why he was thinking about being so stingy with the install originally. lol.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF on gas injection, power?
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:28 pm 
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ToranaGuy wrote:
There are now emissions certified mixer systems for the BA's? Wow, i remember a couple years ago asking around about mixer type conversion for a mate who has a BA, he was trying to be a real tight ar$e, and nobody would quote, the excuse i got at the time was they couldn't due to emissions reasons. That must have changed, but why would anyone bother with such an out dated system on such a modern car? He ended up getting an injection system fit, and it's power & economy now makes him wonder why he was thinking about being so stingy with the install originally. lol.


I completely agree with you there. I believe that initially, there was a lack of interest within the manufacturers and distributors to certify mixer-based systems for BAs because they are that much more temperamental with these types of systems. The E-gas system passed emissions certification and mostly likely so would any other mixer-based system. Thing is, do you REALLY want to subject a BA/BF (which is most likely your pride and joy) to a crappy LPG system that will drain you of 30kW+ of power and risk damaging your engine (backfires) just to save a few hundred bucks?

Regards,
Dave

 

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