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AuII Supercharged or Turbo'd 

 

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 Post subject: AuII Supercharged or Turbo'd
Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:11 pm 
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I am new at the whole concept of making my car go a s**t faster... and really have no idea of how a turbo or a supercharger works on a car or what has to happen... i am just wondering if i could have some advice on what would probably be best for my car....

It's an AUII Ford Falcon, Manual all stock only have had an exhaust put on from jack beedhams at redcliffe so it just sounds a little louder.

If anyone could tell us a bit of what i am getting into it would be greatly appreciated.. just on costs and where abouts to look around in brisbane as i am based on the north side...

Thanks for your help
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:15 pm 
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super charging uses power 2 make power, torbo is free grunt. i rather turbo but it costs about the same 2 s/c or turbo.
be prepared 2 spend $5000 +
good luck :)

 

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:11 pm 
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is the 6 or the 8 mate?

 

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:12 pm 
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and what sorta power figure would u like to achieve

 

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:13 pm 
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& how much u want 2 spend $$$$$$$$$$

 

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:50 pm 
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it's a straight 6 umm price range would be from like 2000-about 6000 maybe
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:51 pm 
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the figure that i would like to achieve is maybe just ova 200 at the wheels lets say or somewhere around taht soo not too much
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:42 am 
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Well depending on what type of falcon u have eg: forte, futura, falcon S etc youre looking at currently having somehitng around the 100rwkw stock give or take a little bit.

So to double that is a fair bit of work.

JMM (jim mock motorsport) offer a DEV5 NA kit for VCT motors (variable Cam timing) (Naturally aspirated ie: no forced induction (turbo, superchargers or NOS) Now for their big 160rwkw setup that $7,070.

This kit includes
"Scavenger" Headers, Modified Cat and 2.5" Hi-Performance Mandrel bent exhaust, Hi-Flow Intake modifications, DEV-VCT Cam kit, Special Valve Springs & Retainers. Head Reconditioning, extensive porting and head alterations to race standard, Compression increase, Special Spark Plugs and Leads, JMM Ultimate Sequential Computer and Custom Dyno Tuning."

a CAPA supercharger kit will start u off at $6,319 supplied (not fitted) that is estimated to give 240kw at the motor so will be tad over 200rwkw @ 9psi. Based on standard chip ad exhaust (Only dilemna here is and you'll find asking other FM members that other componets such as the fuel system eg: injectors way need to be bigger, larger pressure volume fuel pump)

and for $6K a turbo setup will also push past your budget.

Read through this in depth thread written by CHEF - very detailed and outlays the round cost of a turbo setup on his ED as a DIY project.

http://www.fordmods.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12309

Theres so much extra that could be put in but have a think and get back to us

 

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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:24 am 
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and if your not doing the work yourself or at least all that you can do then expect the price to keep rising... i dont mean to be negative its just that to pull off what you want for the price you want your need to do it yourself or be a very good shopper... go to swap meets and stuff ebay all that will save on the cost as well...
cheers
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:18 pm 
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Thank you for your help about this what about the stock manual that i got with the car a freind of mine was saying something about i would have to make something better in the manual or i could tear it apart or some s**t... dunno what it's up too... also the car is a ford falcon sr..... but yea i will read up and look around ... i do know a couple of mechanics so i might be alrite around the fitting price:)
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:50 am 
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TheRealPyro wrote:
Thank you for your help about this what about the stock manual that i got with the car a freind of mine was saying something about i would have to make something better in the manual or i could tear it apart or some s**t... dunno what it's up too... also the car is a ford falcon sr..... but yea i will read up and look around ... i do know a couple of mechanics so i might be alrite around the fitting price:)


Your gearbox will be fine with the 200rwkw so long as you dont hammer it all the time...if thats what your mate was talking about.

Its when u sorta of exceed the 220rwkw things can start to go wrong most boxes stock wont last 250rwkw very long.

Then yes almost your whole 6K budget would have to go into your transmission or at least around 4.5K if u pass 250rwkw and the car needs it.

But with what you said above for spending you dont need to worry too much. Just dont drive like your in the supercars everyday :P

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:40 am 
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joeboo wrote:
super charging uses power 2 make power, torbo is free grunt.


Sorry but wrong.

A supercharger does indeed require power to drive it. The power required is actually mass airflow times boost. You also need to include the extra power required due to efficieny losses in the blower caused by heating of the air above that which occurs because of compression. Also belt drive losses need to be taken into account.

If you do the maths you will probably find between ten and twenty percent of crankshaft power is lost driving the blower in a typical modern street engine.

Now a turbo also requires power to drive it. The power developed by the exhaust turbine is once again mass airflow times boost, plus efficiency losses, plus bearing losses. If your supercharger has 70% adiabatic efficiency, and your turbo runs at about 70% adiabatic efficiency then the actual shaft horsepower required is going to be identical !

But to drive the exhaust turbine there must be a pressure drop across the exhaust housing and turbine wheel. This is basic thermodynamics. you cannot get power out of something without putting power in.

If you have ever measured the pressure drop across the exhaust turbine you will find it will be typically betwwen twice boost pressure, down to the same as boost pressure if you are really lucky.

But how does this extra back pressure in the exhaust manifold effect engine power ? Well again research has been done into this and the results have been published.

Typically an engine looses 1% of crankshaft power for each psi of back pressure in the exhaust manifold. Surprise ! ! you are going to lose about ten to twenty percent of crankshaft power to drive your turbo, exactly the same as that required to drive a supercharger.

Ah but if you loose 1% of power per psi that means at 100psi back pressure you would have no power at all ? Yes indeed.

When the exhaust valve opens there may be roughly about 100psi left in the combustion chamber trying to get out. If there is no exhaust flow, the engine will stop. Hence zero output power.

The myth that superchargers draw power from the crank, and turbos are free power for nothing is just that, a myth.
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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:31 pm 
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mmmm, no

the actual energy required to turn either shaft in a turbo or a s/c may well be the same, but consider the energy that is used to drive a turbine wheel is otherwise pushed straight out the exhaust pipe if no turbo present...

the pressure difference you mention when the ex valve first opens is called Critical Flow, as long as the cylinder pressure is more than double the ex manifold pressure then critical flow will still occur, and as long as you have this condition present the backpressure will have no affect on flow out of the cylinder, you may say, well.... when you run more boost, u require more load on the turbine wheel to drive it, therefore upping the back pressure, FAIR ENOUGH, but what is happening the other side of the engine, the higher avg cylinder pressure from running the extra boost has increased the pressure remaining in the cylinder when the ex valve opens, therefore counteracting the extra exhast back pressure increase...

using your example of 100psi back pressure, on a turbo engine with 100psi backpressure, you (if a correct setup) would be making near 80psi boost, therfore, you would have over 500psi remaining in the cylinder, certainly enough for critical flow to occur.

the temperature drop across a turbine wheel is as much as 150c, this is the indication of the fuel heat energy being transfered to the turbo shaft, thats the wasted energy that you use at no cost to ure engines power output to drive the turbo.

YES, i agree it takes identical amounts of energy, but its a matter or WHERE the energy comes from... Considering the s/c takes its energy directly from the crankshaft, therefore its using the power that is supposed to be pushing your pistons down, with the turbo rather, the pistons have used as much as they can and whatever is leftover is fed to ya turbo

my 2c.

 

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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:18 pm 
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ebs_4l wrote:

YES, i agree it takes identical amounts of energy, but its a matter or WHERE the energy comes from... Considering the s/c takes its energy directly from the crankshaft, therefore its using the power that is supposed to be pushing your pistons down, with the turbo rather, the pistons have used as much as they can and whatever is leftover is fed to ya turbo

my 2c.


While the exhaust valve is open and the piston is coming up forcing the gases out driving the turbine, you have back pressure on the pistion thus a countor rotating force on the crank drawing power.

Once either a S/C or Turbo hits boost the power made more than counters any loss. Its just getting to the boosting point that is the issue
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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:49 pm 
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Gunns wrote:
ebs_4l wrote:

YES, i agree it takes identical amounts of energy, but its a matter or WHERE the energy comes from... Considering the s/c takes its energy directly from the crankshaft, therefore its using the power that is supposed to be pushing your pistons down, with the turbo rather, the pistons have used as much as they can and whatever is leftover is fed to ya turbo

my 2c.


While the exhaust valve is open and the piston is coming up forcing the gases out driving the turbine, you have back pressure on the pistion thus a countor rotating force on the crank drawing power.


Once either a S/C or Turbo hits boost the power made more than counters any loss. Its just getting to the boosting point that is the issue

Its that counter rotating force that keeps turbo engines together.Due to some resistance on piston on exhaust stroke...
The exh heat/ energy from n/a or s/c engines is lost down exhaust..
A good road turbo set up that I have measured on exhaust is about double intake pressure..I would say that would be close to what n/a s/c engines have as rpm rises??

 

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