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BBM butterflies for boosted application 

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:01 am 
Tyre Shredder
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TROYMAN wrote:
the vacuum feed is from the manifold and the line to the solinoid has the blue/black one way check valve stoping any boost from interfearing or vacuum leaving the solinoid before the ecu triggers it,
so it will work.. but if its an auto and your at full throttle and dont back off the throttle, once the bbm solinoid drops vacuum it stays on short runners untill the throttle is released and there is no boost and vacuum to switch it back... in saying this if the revs are above 3800 on or after the gear change it dont matter as the rpm is high enough for it to stay on short runners..

in manual its the same deal except every time the throttle is released on gear change the short burst of manifold vacuum switches the runners back to long path untill 3800 rpm where it switches to short runners...

I checked mine out last week as I had to take the manifold off to replace the gasket. Much as I hate to be argumentative, I'm compelled to say that the above is a load of bollocks (and where is that C**k'n'balls emoticon when I need it???).

On my AU1, the vacuum line for the butterflies disappears behind the washer bottle and is paired with the vacuum hose that runs from the manifold to the HVAC vacuum reservoir inside the cabin. I remember seeing the line for the butterflies going to this reservoir when I had to take the dash out to change the heater core.

When the engine is off, the butterflies are open. I saw this when I took the top of the BBM off to get to the manifold bolts. When the engine is started, vacuum is applied to the BBM control (dashpot or whatever) to hold the butterflies closed. Logical. At low revs there is vacuum available to the HVAC reservoir, so the whole system uses vacuum while vacuum is being produced. When the revs hit 3800, the vacuum is shut off, causing the butterflies to open again. So there is no difference in BBM operation between automatic and manual cars.

FWIW I've tested my setup with the butterflies operational and disabled (ie locked open). In my setup (as per my sig), when the butterflies operate, the engine has a brief "sweet spot" from 3000 to about 3300 (on petrol) then it goes flat until the butterflies open at 3800 and it spins hard to redline. With the butterflies locked open, there is no flat spot, just lots of urge from 3000 or so to redline. TBH I can't pick much difference at low revs. If anything it seems a bit torquier with the butterflies disabled and is a bit more inclined to hold high gears at lower revs. I guess the Raptor is producing slight positive pressure from about 1400 or so RPM. I've only tested this on petrol so far. Testing with LPG is yet to come.

To disable the butterflies, I just disconnect the vacuum line form the dashpot and plug it to prevent air being sucked in.

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:07 am 
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sly wrote:
TROYMAN wrote:
the vacuum feed is from the manifold and the line to the solinoid has the blue/black one way check valve stoping any boost from interfearing or vacuum leaving the solinoid before the ecu triggers it,
so it will work.. but if its an auto and your at full throttle and dont back off the throttle, once the bbm solinoid drops vacuum it stays on short runners untill the throttle is released and there is no boost and vacuum to switch it back... in saying this if the revs are above 3800 on or after the gear change it dont matter as the rpm is high enough for it to stay on short runners..

in manual its the same deal except every time the throttle is released on gear change the short burst of manifold vacuum switches the runners back to long path untill 3800 rpm where it switches to short runners...

I checked mine out last week as I had to take the manifold off to replace the gasket. Much as I hate to be argumentative, I'm compelled to say that the above is a load of bollocks (and where is that C**k'n'balls emoticon when I need it???).

On my AU1, the vacuum line for the butterflies disappears behind the washer bottle and is paired with the vacuum hose that runs from the manifold to the HVAC vacuum reservoir inside the cabin. I remember seeing the line for the butterflies going to this reservoir when I had to take the dash out to change the heater core.

When the engine is off, the butterflies are open. I saw this when I took the top of the BBM off to get to the manifold bolts. When the engine is started, vacuum is applied to the BBM control (dashpot or whatever) to hold the butterflies closed. Logical. At low revs there is vacuum available to the HVAC reservoir, so the whole system uses vacuum while vacuum is being produced. When the revs hit 3800, the vacuum is shut off, causing the butterflies to open again. So there is no difference in BBM operation between automatic and manual cars.

FWIW I've tested my setup with the butterflies operational and disabled (ie locked open). In my setup (as per my sig), when the butterflies operate, the engine has a brief "sweet spot" from 3000 to about 3300 (on petrol) then it goes flat until the butterflies open at 3800 and it spins hard to redline. With the butterflies locked open, there is no flat spot, just lots of urge from 3000 or so to redline. TBH I can't pick much difference at low revs. If anything it seems a bit torquier with the butterflies disabled and is a bit more inclined to hold high gears at lower revs. I guess the Raptor is producing slight positive pressure from about 1400 or so RPM. I've only tested this on petrol so far. Testing with LPG is yet to come.

To disable the butterflies, I just disconnect the vacuum line form the dashpot and plug it to prevent air being sucked in.


what part is bollocks???? what is your point??

where do you think the vac reservoir gets its vacuum from???? manifold vacuum!!!
and i was stating the it may work different in an auto to manual under BOOST...
because in auto if your under full throttle and the revs drop below 3800 rpm on gear change and the butterflies close, how are the butterflies going to switch from closed to open when there is a constant 10psi boost pressure pushing against them???
in a manual the second the trottle is closed, for a second or so there is no more boost and the butterflies will shut untill they switch over again at 3800rpm..
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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:27 am 
Getting Side Ways
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So Sly the fact that is holding that gear and not shifting down is because it may have more torque at that given spot or ..... something ECU related without the vac pressure?
That sweet spot a 3 grand is where the boost is at what value man?
I'm after hard copy like your info Sly.
Troyman i think written word is sometimes misinterpreted via the readers concepts of the info.

 

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Raptor V-clutched lightweight not intercooled,no tranny cooler,no worries.

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:02 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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There cannot be any real decision one way or the other..
Too many variables ?? Like cam, turbo size / turbo threshold, compression and tune...
On dyno runs we have had issues with BBM working opposite to how it should ...
I assume the vacuum has gone from canister ?? Or just not enough, issues with valve or leaks??
It works either way... Hell the long runner manifold from earlier E series works too...
Having a good tune keeps engine on song also..
My engine [V8] way advanced before boost then drops back quick to keep half decent throttle response due to VERY low compression...

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:48 pm 
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So where on a BA will i disable or block the vacuum to try keeping the butterfly valves open?
To see what happens on mine is all i'd like to do..

 

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Raptor V-clutched lightweight not intercooled,no tranny cooler,no worries.

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:10 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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TROYMAN wrote:
what part is bollocks???? what is your point??

where do you think the vac reservoir gets its vacuum from???? manifold vacuum!!!


Probably my bad... When I read
TROYMAN wrote:
the vacuum feed is from the manifold
I assumed you were saying the vacuum line for the butterflies came DIRECTLY from the manifold. Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant.

TROYMAN wrote:
and i was stating the it may work different in an auto to manual under BOOST...
because in auto if your under full throttle and the revs drop below 3800 rpm on gear change and the butterflies close, how are the butterflies going to switch from closed to open when there is a constant 10psi boost pressure pushing against them???


The same way they open when you get up it from a standing start and there is 10psi pressure against them...

TROYMAN wrote:
in a manual the second the trottle is closed, for a second or so there is no more boost and the butterflies will shut untill they switch over again at 3800rpm..


Luckily, the boost doesn't affect the operation of the butterflies as the HVAC reservoir has enough capacity to maintain vacuum. You don't want your vents returning to their default setting while you're overtaking someone. Car makers learned this lesson decades ago from vacuum-powered wipers which slowed or stopped going uphill.

If you're up it for a long period, like on a track or strip, you may eventually deplete the stored vacuum and be stuck on short runners in an auto, but it shouldn't happen on the street.

 

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AU1.5 Wagon, Raptor ProStreet kit, Pacemaker 4499's with 3" collector, 3" metal cat, 3" pipe, Pex BSO660 & BSO439, BA brakes, Sprintgas mixer LPG system, Airod variable-venturi mixer... stealth FTW Sniper tuned!

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:30 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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badcooky wrote:
So Sly the fact that is holding that gear and not shifting down is because it may have more torque at that given spot or ..... something ECU related without the vac pressure?
That sweet spot a 3 grand is where the boost is at what value man?
I'm after hard copy like your info Sly.
Troyman i think written word is sometimes misinterpreted via the readers concepts of the info.

Yeah, I'd guess there is more torque so the throttle is lighter, preventing kickdown being triggered.

I don't have any boost readings ATM. My dyno runs when I fitted the kit were awful... AFR's in the low 10's and barely 150RWKW. The car had existing hardware problems that adding boost just made worse and it's sat almost undriven for 2 years. I had to resurrect the car last week and found a leaky manifold gasket and some damaged wiring. With both those fixed and a reduction in injector size (replaced the 36lb units with 29lb XR6T injectors) it feels hugely better. I might resurrect plans to fit an XR6T TMAP and have it tuned properly for boost, so I might have some dyno printouts next year.

 

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AU1.5 Wagon, Raptor ProStreet kit, Pacemaker 4499's with 3" collector, 3" metal cat, 3" pipe, Pex BSO660 & BSO439, BA brakes, Sprintgas mixer LPG system, Airod variable-venturi mixer... stealth FTW Sniper tuned!

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:36 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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badcooky wrote:
So where on a BA will i disable or block the vacuum to try keeping the butterfly valves open?
To see what happens on mine is all i'd like to do..

IIRC the BA BBM isn't much different to the AU, so here is where the butterfly controller is:

Image

and this is how I disable mine, leaving the butterflies locked open. It's just a 3mm or so vacuum hose joiner with a cap on the barb. I think I got an assortment in a pack from Supercheap a few years ago. Quick & cheap, easy to reverse. Go for it and see which way works best for you.

Image

 

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AU1.5 Wagon, Raptor ProStreet kit, Pacemaker 4499's with 3" collector, 3" metal cat, 3" pipe, Pex BSO660 & BSO439, BA brakes, Sprintgas mixer LPG system, Airod variable-venturi mixer... stealth FTW Sniper tuned!

To be updated... soon!

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:33 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Yea i knew you could do that but i thought it'd interfere with the supercharger.
But now that i think about it it won't will it.
Thanks Sly,i had a brain not working moment.
Actually had it for about 47 years.

 

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P'maker headers',Hi flow cat,3" sports sytem,
Raptor V-clutched lightweight not intercooled,no tranny cooler,no worries.

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:55 pm 
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LOL!

 

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AU1.5 Wagon, Raptor ProStreet kit, Pacemaker 4499's with 3" collector, 3" metal cat, 3" pipe, Pex BSO660 & BSO439, BA brakes, Sprintgas mixer LPG system, Airod variable-venturi mixer... stealth FTW Sniper tuned!

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:18 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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I just got my blower back from Tim(maintenance) and dude i just measured my blower pulley and it's 58mm OD and 56.5 ID,boost me baby.
I asked him to make it smaller,i had a 14lb pulley b4 now it'd be a bit more.

 

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BA XL ute.
P'maker headers',Hi flow cat,3" sports sytem,
Raptor V-clutched lightweight not intercooled,no tranny cooler,no worries.

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:29 pm 
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badcooky
i had a 59mm on my raptor and i beleive it was the 12psi pulley..
how do you go with the life of the internal belts?? i ran the 2 x 30mm bovs as required and it still kept breaking belts :?
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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:23 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Maybe the springs were too strong or something.
Yea i go good.
Tim told me my pulley was 14lb or there abouts and he's taken a mill of've that ,my measurements are close but not actually exact.
Tim is watching as he just texted me,it's the measurement on the top of the inside ribs that give the size and not the outer, the outer can be +/- and it won't matter.

 

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BA XL ute.
P'maker headers',Hi flow cat,3" sports sytem,
Raptor V-clutched lightweight not intercooled,no tranny cooler,no worries.

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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:54 pm 
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badcooky wrote:
Maybe the springs were too strong or something.
Yea i go good.
Tim told me my pulley was 14lb or there abouts and he's taken a mill of've that ,my measurements are close but not actually exact.
Tim is watching as he just texted me,it's the measurement on the top of the inside ribs that give the size and not the outer, the outer can be +/- and it won't matter.



i dont know what the problem was.. just unlucky i guess?...

anyway ive been driving mine around with the bbm cable tied open for the last few days and there is still a difference down low and cruising throttle responce as you would notice in a na set up..

imo if you set it up without the bbm and drove it not being able to compare the difference you wouldnt notice it, as the car is still very smooth and nice to drive with no bbm operating..
under full throttle conditions, especially with the turbo the bbm dont seem to make a difference as boost come on pretty early and fast...
i did notice that with the vacuum disconected without the cable tie holding the bbm open the car would lightly surge under boost..
i can only assume the bbm butterflies were fluttering open and closed under air pressure??
but once the bbm was cable tied the surge was gone...

at the end of the day ive removed the cable tie and the bbm is operational again, as imo its still better with it operating..
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 Post subject: Re: BBM butterflies for boosted application
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:49 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Looks like i'm gonna have to try it folks,so i know for myself.

 

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