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Intake runner length and S/Cing 

 

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 Post subject: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:30 pm 
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Hi,
I'm planning to put an Eaton M122H on my 5.0 by fabbing a plenum and intercooler straight on to the lower Intake section. Today I was talking to a bloke about it and he asked whether the short runners that I am left with as a result of getting rid of the top part of the intake manifold will affect the torque of the engine. I said I didn't think so because the engine was being forced with intake charge and therefore wasn't relying on the shape and length of the runners to create the velocity needed. But I dont know that for sure.

When I look at a Shelby GT500 tho (the car my blower came off) the Eaton sits so low in the valley that its runners must be waaay short. And it's not short on torque. So, can some one confirm that runner length is not that big a deal under boost?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Crane wrote:
So, can some one confirm that runner length is not that big a deal under boost?


That's right. The important part is to make sure each runner flows the same, so each cylinder fills equally.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:29 pm 
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data_mine wrote:
Crane wrote:
So, can some one confirm that runner length is not that big a deal under boost?


That's right. The important part is to make sure each runner flows the same, so each cylinder fills equally.


Excellant, thank you. I spoke to a bloke Abrasive Flow in Sydney today about having my HO manifold lower reamed out for better flow and (apart from it being no more economical than buying a whole Explorer or similar manifold) he told me that number 5 runner has a sensor in it that messes up the flow and compromises the whole show.

His suggestion was that maybe I get a carby manifold (say an Edelbrock RPM), boss it up for the rails and injectors and bolt the Eaton on that. From what you have just said that may be a good idea. I could place the sensors where they are least obtrusive and I would have the extra benefit of full length runners for the rev range I want. (idle-5500)

Of course, that could all be easier said than done too :)

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:44 pm 
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As long as the plenum distributes well, i doubt it would make a difference.

The sensor (i assume its a temp one) can just be redirected to the inlet pipe before the blower, It would also be better to stick to either the HO or Explorer type manifolds to retain the injector locations and fuel rails.

I wouldnt bother porting a HO lower manifold in all honesty, they upgrade to the Explorer would flow enough to make the gains worthwhile, the heads will be the next restriction, if it is still running E7's.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:43 pm 
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schnoods wrote:
...The sensor (i assume its a temp one) can just be redirected to the inlet pipe before the blower, It would also be better to stick to either the HO or Explorer type manifolds to retain the injector locations and fuel rails.

Thats sounds a great idea. Do you think that the difference in the temp of the air before and after the blower could be a problem for tuning? Apparently these Eatons heat the air up a bit. I will have an intercooler tho. Maybe if I put the temp sensor in the wall of the plenum just under the intercooler?

schnoods wrote:
I wouldnt bother porting a HO lower manifold in all honesty, they upgrade to the Explorer would flow enough to make the gains worthwhile, the heads will be the next restriction, if it is still running E7's.

The quote to extrude hone the HO lower was $500 :shock: so no, I wont be doing that, an exporer lower will do nicely and yeah, the E7s are still on it and I'm torn between lashing out on a set of alloys and retaining the "unopened" status of what I've got because it just runs so well as it is (all 165kw :? ) Given that it will be under boost, will the restrictiveness of the E7s still be noticeable given that I intend to run the stock cam for a while and then maybe go to a very torquey cam (I'm thinking of a Crane 2020)

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:01 am 
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Crane wrote:
schnoods wrote:
...The sensor (i assume its a temp one) can just be redirected to the inlet pipe before the blower, It would also be better to stick to either the HO or Explorer type manifolds to retain the injector locations and fuel rails.

Thats sounds a great idea. Do you think that the difference in the temp of the air before and after the blower could be a problem for tuning?


I would think it would matter. As spark advance and such is based off of intake temps, giving a 'false' reading would potentially be disasterous.

As for cams, good N/A cams, aren't all that good for blowers (you'll just end up forcing more intake charge out the still open exhaust port).

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:15 am 
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^^Thanks again for the good advice. I will make sure to find a spot for the temp sensor post blower and start looking around for a nice torquey blower friendly cam.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/King
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:44 am 
Getting Side Ways
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I think you are worrying too much..
With sensor where its fitted tunes better as it reads real time air temp..
The boost you can run in std engine ... It won't matter, except as said
Buy yourself another inlet and heads.. Std heads on boost lift as there
deck is not very thick / strong.. [including GTP heads] Head bolts will be the next weak link..
way before any sensor will make any difference !!
A cheap alternative...Find yourself an F series lower which is very similar to Holley..
The lower F series flows VERY well...
Alloy heads are way more detonation proof...
Just remember though!! Your only after 450 FW h.p MAX !!...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/King
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 1:11 am 
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EBXR8380 wrote:
Just remember though!! Your only after 450 FW h.p MAX !!...


Or you end up with this:
Image

:shock:

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Bling
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 1:15 am 
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EBXR8380 wrote:
I think you are worrying too much..

Whew! Good, I'll stop now :)
EBXR8380 wrote:
With sensor where its fitted tunes better as it reads real time air temp..
The boost you can run in std engine ... It won't matter, except as said
Buy yourself another inlet and heads.. Std heads on boost lift as there
deck is not very thick / strong.. [including GTP heads] Head bolts will be the next weak link..
way before any sensor will make any difference !!
A cheap alternative...Find yourself an F series lower which is very similar to Holley..
The lower F series flows VERY well...
Alloy heads are way more detonation proof...
Just remember though!! Your only after 450 FW h.p MAX !!...

Cheers, thanks for the perspective. I'll check all that out. I didnt realise that the material used contributed that much to resistance to detonation. Better heat distribution/transfer yeah? And yeah, 400-450 will be plenty for me.

Edit: Lol data_mine! Theres bugger all holding them together isn't there. Might have to get an F series sump too :roll:

 

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:47 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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data_mine wrote:
Crane wrote:
schnoods wrote:
...The sensor (i assume its a temp one) can just be redirected to the inlet pipe before the blower, It would also be better to stick to either the HO or Explorer type manifolds to retain the injector locations and fuel rails.

Thats sounds a great idea. Do you think that the difference in the temp of the air before and after the blower could be a problem for tuning?


I would think it would matter. As spark advance and such is based off of intake temps, giving a 'false' reading would potentially be disasterous.

As for cams, good N/A cams, aren't all that good for blowers (you'll just end up forcing more intake charge out the still open exhaust port).



It is located at the inlet pipe on all AU's... There will only be slight variation anyways, the tune would take care of it.


A crane cam like a 2030 or 2031 normally work well in a boosted motor too, but there are blower specific cams on the market too.

Any upgrade from the E7 is an upgrade, I used to flat line with power at 4800 just because the heads didnt flow (also ran stock cam and rockers)...

 

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'95 EF XR8 auto, Advance headers, 3" exhaust, Cobra manifold, BBK 75mm throttle body , 80MM Marauder MAF, Vortech V2 T Trim , 307 rwhp, 405 ft/lb 13.2 @ 105 MPH

Now N/A (permanent Lag) - AFR 165's, Comp XE270 cam, 1.6 RR - 269 rwhp 14.1 @ 102mph.

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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:56 pm 
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Im going back a bit here but the runner length isnt going to make that much of difference, given the forced induction.

Volumetric efficiency and Pascals principle are the two things that need to be checked out.

Id say the shorter the better. Less volume for the supercharger to fill before boost is reached.
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 Post subject: Re: Intake runner length and S/Cing
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:12 pm 
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Sounds like a fun project,keep us updated.

 

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