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Is my turbo too big? 

 

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 Post subject: Is my turbo too big?
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:19 pm 
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hi

just wondering if anyone that knows a bit about turbo falcons could give me a bit of advice.
Im a qualified mechanic so i know what im doing.

Ive got a white ea spack mpi 3.45 gears, stock as a rock, 5 speed, 25 spline axles, single spinner, 300,000km (engine has done 50,000 since rebuild) 16" el xr8 wheels
Specs are:

Holset HC3 off a Cummins VT504 (504 cu in diesel)

This is what I have measured: (approx)

compressor wheel minor - 60mm
compressor mouth - 103mm OD
compressor outlet - 55mm
compressor measure about 23cm across

turbine wheel - minor - 72mm
turbine outlet - 91mm
turbine twin entry 40*60mm(each) twin entry

Weighs 19kg
its all planned out just have a couple of small questions. not sure if the turbo i have is too big or not. i dont want it too be too laggy. what do y'all think?
I got the snail off a friend for nothing so I think its worth a try.
My goal is about 250-300kw at the wheels only want mid to high 11's.
Ive build a twin turbo 253 vh commodore before and a turbo & nitrous gsxr1100 can provide pics if you dont believe me.

ANY GUESSES WHEN IT WOULD MAKE BOOST?
I think it is roughly the equal to a garrett T66???

Without getting into too much details this is what I have planned:

3" exhaust hollow cat one hooker aero chamber muffler dumped before diff.
homemade log style manifold using steam pipe bends
50mm wastegate (prob a ebay special)
Bosch 984 pump mounted in tank
stock fuel lines
FMU 4:1 from the US
1" oil drain turbo to sump
stock injectors, ecu regulator
water/methanol injection
no intercooler
boost gauge, fuel pressure gauge & 10 led jaycar mixture meter all in dash
2* 5/8" hose for rocker vents between airfilter & turbo
3" pipe between turbo and stock manifold & throttle body
blow off valves made from magna egr valves (done this before they work & sound good)
saas $24 autobarn universal 3" air filter pod
everything is going to be mild steel im doing this all on a very tight budget. i get more satisfaction in saying i spent less not more.

i really want to hear from anyone that can point me in the right direction.
ive heard that using fmu's is a bit dodgy but Im sure it will work ok for what i want.
i just want a tyre fryer pretty much. And something that is as almost as fun as my 04 GSXR1000.

Also any advice on the clutch. I think Ill be tempted to go to a 3 speed auto if the clutch can't take it.

Luke.
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Last edited by luke111 on Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:33 pm 
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Power: 315 rwkw

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Nup, your proposed set up wont pull 300wkws.

Ive never bothered playing with truck turbos like that one but poeple do use them... If your serious about doing 11s then spend some serious money and dont muck about with dodgy junk
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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:39 pm 
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injectors prolly wont be any use for the power you want to make... a guy on ebay.com (american) sells ford injectors for a fair price according to a few guys on here... also you might wanna use a wolf or something instead of the regulator as this way will prolly not get the power you want either then again its a cheaper way and it does work...dont expect the gearbox to last too long if your thrashing it... auto prolly wont last any longer but shmeh they arnt that expensive to buy another ...
the "drift" series pod filters are designed for turbo applications and are only about $30 and i think they have a lifetime garuantee or warranty or something other than that tho sounds good.

out of curiosity how do you make these BOV's out of egr's can you show us some pics... please???
cheers & good luck with it
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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:36 pm 
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Quote:
Nup, your proposed set up wont pull 300wkws.

Ive never bothered playing with truck turbos like that one but poeple do use them... If your serious about doing 11s then spend some serious money and dont muck about with dodgy junk


WHY? WHAT IS DODGY JUNK? THE TURBO?? BE MORE SPECIFIC!!
I won't achieve anything if i only receive short answers.

I am not dead serious about 11's and Im not serious about making 300rwkw.
I am serious about turboing my falcon though. i only want to have some fun in it.

The purpose of my post was to find out what is wrong with what I have planned. I hate learning things the expensive way.
Ok, it sounds like my turbo is too big, i havent lost anything anyway didnt cost me nuttin. I think it would work good on a big v8 though.
Would a pair of TD04's from a WRX be ok on a 3.9?? has this been done before?
Below is a pic of my last turbo car I built it was in street commodores a couple of years ago it was a 253 with 2 * 13b turbos blowing through a 650 double pumper. never dynoed it but i ran it was 22psi a couple of times but it was usually at 15psi.
you can see the magna egr valves on the rear of the intake pipes to the plenum.
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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:38 pm 
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cAN'T UPLOAD ANY PICS. THIS FORUM SUCKS.

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:41 pm 
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How high does the cummins rev and at what rpm does it make its peak torque? Once you know that then you can roughy work out the rpm @peak boost on your I6 by using engine capacity and boost rpm. It won't be spot on but it will be pretty close. Since its only a 504 cummins that probably hits boost just above 1200rpm (very rough guess, can you help me out seton) then it would probably begin to make its boost at around 2400rpm on the falcon.
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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:46 pm 
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luke111 wrote:
cAN'T UPLOAD ANY PICS. THIS FORUM SUCKS.

Sorry, but the maximum filesize for all Attachments is reached. Please contact the Board Administrator if you have questions.


host em and then just link em ... I get that error as well.. meh

 

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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:00 pm 
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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:23 pm 
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Not sure but the VT504 is rated at 270hp & 2700rpm.

This tells me that the compressor is good for at least 270hp.
My 3.9 is almost half the size of a 504 so that should mean that it will be good up until 5400rpm so it should be just a tad bigger than i need.
I also believe that every turbo car you see at the drag strip that is going really quick has a turbo that is too big for it.

The VT504 is a 1979 model and its hard to find any info about it on the web. I ve got a mate that works for cat im going to get him to find out some more info on it tomorrow.

If anyone here has seen Jake Edwards LH torana with the turbo from a N14 cummins would agree it looks huge but it makes the numbers.
My turbo is smaller than his for sure but my engine is only 1.1L smaller than his 304.

I think this turbo looks really good on the compressor side but the exhaust housing looks too large and so does the exhaust wheel. I dont wont positive boost any later than probably 2800rpm.
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Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:09 pm 
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luke111 wrote:
Quote:
Nup, your proposed set up wont pull 300wkws.

Ive never bothered playing with truck turbos like that one but poeple do use them... If your serious about doing 11s then spend some serious money and dont muck about with dodgy junk


WHY? WHAT IS DODGY JUNK? THE TURBO?? BE MORE SPECIFIC!!
I won't achieve anything if i only receive short answers.


backyard blow-off valves
ecu regulator
$24 pod specials
no cooler
stock injectors

im not saying that this wont work but if you wont serious power then your going to have to put your short arm into your long pocket.

im no turbo expert but to expect that much power with no cooler is crazy coz chances are youll have the pod connected dirctly onto the compressor mouth sucking in nothing but really hot air

your stock injectors will run out of puff at around 180kw (if that)

christ only knows how these blow off egr's work

id replace the ecu regulator with either a wolf3d v4+ or a motec simply because you will be able to tune it better and extract some extra power out of the motor

 

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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:55 am 
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Quote:
ecu regulator
$24 pod specials
no cooler
stock injectors

im not saying that this wont work but if you wont serious power then your going to have to put your short arm into your long pocket.

im no turbo expert but to expect that much power with no cooler is crazy coz chances are youll have the pod connected dirctly onto the compressor mouth sucking in nothing but really hot air

your stock injectors will run out of puff at around 180kw (if that)

christ only knows how these blow off egr's work

id replace the ecu regulator with either a wolf3d v4+ or a motec simply because you will be able to tune it better and extract some extra power out of the motor


Just because I paid $24 for the pod doesnt mean it is crap. Ive seen plenty of turbo carbs running universal 3" pods.
Thats like saying "mate you can't turbo your falcon because you only paid $800 for it. You need to spend $20,000". Thats bullcrap.

No cooler? DO some more research. Simon Pimms LJ black torana (thunder roads race cars) runs a turbo 202 no intercooler just water/methanol injection runs low 9's. Ive seen it at willowbank many times and it is a nice simple setup that works extremely well.
Intercoolers arent the be all and end all. Most people are brainwashed into thinking that they are.
Intercoolers are good but they arent the only option.

I have fitted these egr valves before and they do work i have tested them. There was a write up about them in zoom magazine a few years ago. I have seen them fitted to other cars as well. The bonus is wreckers usually only charge $10 each for them. They work better than those plastic bosch blow-off valves.

I do agree that an aftermarket computer would be beneficial but Im trying to do this on a budget.
If FMU's don't work then why do most supercharger kits come with one as the only source of enrichment? Ive seen plenty of fuel injection 5L motors with vortech blowers etc, use this setup plenty of mustangs etc in the states run this arrangement so why won't it work for me?
Theoretically im only running 7 psi so it should be fine.
When I turboed my commodore I only changed the secondary main jets from 83's to 89's and everything else was sweet. It worked. It is still going 2 years later with that exact same setup.
The stock injectors will work if more fuel is passed through them. Thats why Im upgraded to a 984 bosch pump, i know with the stock pump that when the pressure is raised from the fmu that the flow will actually go down but this wont happy with the 984, they flow plenty at high psi.
Im am just going to fit an orifice into the hose between the plenum and the fmu and bleed off some of the signal until i get the correct signal to it that it needs for the correct mixture.
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:42 pm 
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Sounds like you might be going at this the wrong way.

A) Either you listen to the experience of ppl on here with tried and proven setups.

Or B) you forge your own way in to new unexplored territory.

If you choose B be prepared to go gently, do heaps of research from base level engineering and test and measure your results in a scientific way.

It sounds like you want to do B but your comments re intercooler suggest you haven't done alot of research. And since you dont have a way of adjusting ignition timing or measuring intake temps your just going to chance it not running an intercooler on an engine and turbo setup that is completely different to "Simon Pimms LJ torana"

Time for a project reality check before it costs you $$$.

 

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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:52 pm 
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Some dyno queens run alcahol which doesn't need i/c ..Low boost you'll be o/k but whats the point? New i/c are $399 or cheaper ...
Truck type turbo's will work on 4.0 6's as they also like heaps of exhaust flow..NOT optimum but it'll still work...I'd lock timing at 20* or atleast stop it from advancing as in std tune...

 

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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:04 pm 
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With my turbo setup I had the stock injectors running with about 80-90 psi behind them at full boost with the aid of a 12-1 rising rate regulator., that was just enough fuel to get 180kw. I dont think injectors will handle to much more pressure behind them, but you could try..

I've got a set of 8 360cc injectors i'm selling if your interested.. I'd say you would need an aftermarked ecu to run them..

Good luck..
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:15 pm 
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Quote:
It sounds like you want to do B but your comments re intercooler suggest you haven't done alot of research.


Trust me, I have done my research. I have read and re-read maximum boost by corky bell, forced induction tuning by a. graham bell, turbochargers by hugh mcinnes, spent countless hours researching on the internet. I have probably forgotten more than what you know.
I am not interested in hearing from squids that think the big and the shinier the intercooler the better. You must be one of those "brainwashed" people.

I have post the same questions above on some different forums around the web to see where the more intelligent people hang out.

Spork, what sort of experience do you have with turboed falcons anyway?
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