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twin turbo + twin supercharger eb 

 

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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:36 pm 
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Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
CLEANEB wrote:
Heres an idea, how about you just get mummy and daddy to buy you your bmw, and dont bother about these wild dreams of yours about twin superchargers and twin turbos. Do you know why it hasnt been done before? because its stupid, incredibly expensive and it would be impossible to engineer for road use! do your self a favour and stop embarrasing yourself mate, you need to grow up and learn how a car works



ah yes learn how a car works?
do u want some photos of the cars i have made?

u obviously know me from somewhere because of the bmw comment (unless i put it on earlyer)

and incredibly expesnsive i think not?

make a basic log style tor even tuned length win turbo if whre going to go twin but one big single is better

$400 at most using steam pipe

twin turbos around 600 using std T3 secconed hand ones

twin super chargers $600 (sc-14)

intercooler 300

piping 500

after market ecu 1800

injectors 500

fuel pump/s 500

water and oil lines (make em my self) free

hows that sound?


and btw i said it wasnt going to happen anymore due to the eb being in a crash.

who are u too? its ur first post so mybe a mod or someone else of another fourm, or even some loser thats made two usernames to make him slef look like he has friends!


thats just all bolt on s**t! what about the engine internals? like new cam uprated valve springs, guides, valves, pistons, conrods, crankshaft, bearings, rings, youll have to change the compression ratio due to it being forced induction, and all that other s**t! you cant just bolt all that on and expect it to work. being as this is never done before there will be alot of mucking around to get it to work. and then theres diff, gearbox brakes suspension those three alone would cost about 5 g's + for decent gear. you cant just say im doing this and that and putting 5 turbos and 8 superchargers or what ever! so im just saying that you cant go around saying your gunna do all this crazy s**t to a car cause it makes you seem like an idiot, it wont matter how much money you have youll never find an engine builder to do it for you theyll just laugh in your face! so next time just think before you post stupid stuff. and by the way i know you from calaisturbo.com where i laughed as i watched you get flamed for your incredibly gay VL with all your neons and computer monitors , trying to rice up a perfectly good vl, seems youve spread you stupitidy to other websites.....
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 Post subject: Re: HKS Twin Charger
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:15 pm 
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Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
i think the 4agze is the engine that the supercahred i may use come of the sc-14, so is it just a kit like has turbo exhuast manifold and piping ?
what way do they mave it orderd?

I don't think they make them anymore. You would need to hang around some Jap importers/wreckers for while and cross your fingers.

Thats a replica Lotus 23 in the pics right? Who makes the kit?
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 Post subject: Re: HKS Twin Charger
Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:21 am 
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xr8ute wrote:
Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
i think the 4agze is the engine that the supercahred i may use come of the sc-14, so is it just a kit like has turbo exhuast manifold and piping ?
what way do they mave it orderd?

I don't think they make them anymore. You would need to hang around some Jap importers/wreckers for while and cross your fingers.

Thats a replica Lotus 23 in the pics right? Who makes the kit?


no one we start from scratch, we have all the moulds and every thing the only thing we didnt do on the car is the painting, that was done by race paint.er)

 

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:29 am 
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CLEANEB wrote:
Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
CLEANEB wrote:
Heres an idea, how about you just get mummy and daddy to buy you your bmw, and dont bother about these wild dreams of yours about twin superchargers and twin turbos. Do you know why it hasnt been done before? because its stupid, incredibly expensive and it would be impossible to engineer for road use! do your self a favour and stop embarrasing yourself mate, you need to grow up and learn how a car works



ah yes learn how a car works?
do u want some photos of the cars i have made?

u obviously know me from somewhere because of the bmw comment (unless i put it on earlyer)

and incredibly expesnsive i think not?

make a basic log style tor even tuned length win turbo if whre going to go twin but one big single is better

$400 at most using steam pipe

twin turbos around 600 using std T3 secconed hand ones

twin super chargers $600 (sc-14)

intercooler 300

piping 500

after market ecu 1800

injectors 500

fuel pump/s 500

water and oil lines (make em my self) free

hows that sound?


and btw i said it wasnt going to happen anymore due to the eb being in a crash.

who are u too? its ur first post so mybe a mod or someone else of another fourm, or even some loser thats made two usernames to make him slef look like he has friends!


thats just all bolt on s**t! what about the engine internals? like new cam uprated valve springs, guides, valves, pistons, conrods, crankshaft, bearings, rings, youll have to change the compression ratio due to it being forced induction, and all that other s**t! you cant just bolt all that on and expect it to work. being as this is never done before there will be alot of mucking around to get it to work. and then theres diff, gearbox brakes suspension those three alone would cost about 5 g's + for decent gear. you cant just say im doing this and that and putting 5 turbos and 8 superchargers or what ever! so im just saying that you cant go around saying your gunna do all this crazy s**t to a car cause it makes you seem like an idiot, it wont matter how much money you have youll never find an engine builder to do it for you theyll just laugh in your face! so next time just think before you post stupid stuff. and by the way i know you from calaisturbo.com where i laughed as i watched you get flamed for your incredibly gay VL with all your neons and computer monitors , trying to rice up a perfectly good vl, seems youve spread you stupitidy to other websites.....


listen to me u little fagget, i did ot say i was going to make an engine that does 1000rwkw did i, and if u knew anything u would know that u dont have to have low comp to run boost! boost is only made by resirction, u obliviously dont know s**t about cars, i might even srat making this engine just for the run os it u wank, if u have alook on ct u will see that STOCKYMCSTOCK is doing the same thing atm with a RB30DET or is it a RB25DET, all i can remeber is that he is using a rb25 det head and runing a turbo and a sc, i WILL rip the engine outta my old ea that got writen off to just to rub it in your face that i can get one runnning, i will run one supercharger and one turbo mybe if i have more money i will do a twin and twin, i will have to see, but just for the fun of it i will have a FMIC to spice the piping up :D now stfu and give me till this time next year to get it finished u sk!

 

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 Post subject: Re: HKS Twin Charger
Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:31 am 
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xr8ute wrote:
Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
i think the 4agze is the engine that the supercahred i may use come of the sc-14, so is it just a kit like has turbo exhuast manifold and piping ?
what way do they mave it orderd?

I don't think they make them anymore. You would need to hang around some Jap importers/wreckers for while and cross your fingers.

Thats a replica Lotus 23 in the pics right? Who makes the kit?


we make the chassie from 1inch sqaure tube, its really quite easy to do :D

 

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:57 am 
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Honestly what the f**k is the point.

If your not aiming for big power then a single turbo will be fine - it'll generate all the boost needed.

All your doing by adding the extra turbo is adding more backpressure, and the two superchargers are just going to be a parasitic drag on the motor.

And don't give me that crap about superchargers making more bottom end torque, your planning on using a centrifugal unit - practically a f**k turbo on a belt.

It's be s**t, the pipework will be a mess, and it'll be costly.

Have fun 8-)

 

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:06 am 
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voxace wrote:
Honestly what the f**k is the point.

If your not aiming for big power then a single turbo will be fine - it'll generate all the boost needed.

All your doing by adding the extra turbo is adding more backpressure, and the two superchargers are just going to be a parasitic drag on the motor.

And don't give me that crap about superchargers making more bottom end torque, your planning on using a centrifugal unit - practically a f**k turbo on a belt.

It's be s**t, the pipework will be a mess, and it'll be costly.

Have fun 8-)


no not centriifugal a sc-14 twin screw/roots style compressur, will make the turbo come on boost alot sooner, and having two turbos is not adding extra back pressure...... its like saying a 3 in hole will flow better then two 3in holes....

but as i said i will mostlikly be doing a single turbo and single sc

 

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Last edited by Marmo aka GRNGOB on Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HKS Twin Charger
Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:07 am 
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xr8ute wrote:
I don't think they make them anymore. You would need to hang around some Jap importers/wreckers for while and cross your fingers.



yeah the jap importers have them in stock well most of them they range from 295 to 350 a very versitle sc

 

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:22 am 
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Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
no not centriifugal a sc-14 twin screw/roots style compressur, will make the turbo come on boost alot sooner, and having two turbos is not adding extra back pressure...... its like saying a 3 in hole will flow better then two 3in holes....

but as i said i will mostlikly be doing a single turbo and single sc


OK sorry didn't realise they weren't centrifugal.
I guess you got it figured by now that 2 of each is a bad idea....lol

How about overdriving the supercharger a bit more than you originally planned, and then have the clutch on it cut out at about 3000rpm, and let the turbo do all the work from there. That should be alright for bottom end I guess...

Backpressure was the wrong word anyways, I've had a few drinks. I kinda meant to opposite. Like your going to want the exhaust gas to spool the turbos up, not to flow out freely. They'd have to be pretty small turbos I'd imagine...

What turbo do you plan on running with the single now anyway?

I still reckon the S/C is going to be a drag on the engine more than anything though, with the right turbo you should have no problems spooling it up quickly and making good torque right from the word go - especially since you aren't after big power.

 

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:31 am 
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voxace wrote:
Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
no not centriifugal a sc-14 twin screw/roots style compressur, will make the turbo come on boost alot sooner, and having two turbos is not adding extra back pressure...... its like saying a 3 in hole will flow better then two 3in holes....

but as i said i will mostlikly be doing a single turbo and single sc


OK sorry didn't realise they weren't centrifugal.
I guess you got it figured by now that 2 of each is a bad idea....lol

How about overdriving the supercharger a bit more than you originally planned, and then have the clutch on it cut out at about 3000rpm, and let the turbo do all the work from there. That should be alright for bottom end I guess...

Backpressure was the wrong word anyways, I've had a few drinks. I kinda meant to opposite. Like your going to want the exhaust gas to spool the turbos up, not to flow out freely. They'd have to be pretty small turbos I'd imagine...

What turbo do you plan on running with the single now anyway?

I still reckon the S/C is going to be a drag on the engine more than anything though, with the right turbo you should have no problems spooling it up quickly and making good torque right from the word go - especially since you aren't after big power.



im not sure, i will have to look into it alot more like the how much ai rthe eninge use's ect, and i willl work it out from there.

i have spoken to some ppl that have done it before and they said just take the boost from after the sc and every thing will be sweet, like the supercharger suks fromt the turbo but also forces air out into the exhaust side of the turbo thats why it spools up so quick, the superchargers on the origanl car cam on at i think 2 or 3 k rpm and tehy can even be run off, like the clutch disengaged and people have said they did not notice much of a diffrence with the supercharer on (not running but) and the old na set up

 

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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:33 am 
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i will be hoping for about 7-10psi getting pumped in due to the semi-high compression of the engine, i want to get an internaly gated turbo just for costs and piping on the exhaust manifold/dump pipe

 

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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:39 pm 
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Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
CLEANEB wrote:
Marmo aka GRNGOB wrote:
CLEANEB wrote:
Heres an idea, how about you just get mummy and daddy to buy you your bmw, and dont bother about these wild dreams of yours about twin superchargers and twin turbos. Do you know why it hasnt been done before? because its stupid, incredibly expensive and it would be impossible to engineer for road use! do your self a favour and stop embarrasing yourself mate, you need to grow up and learn how a car works



ah yes learn how a car works?
do u want some photos of the cars i have made?

u obviously know me from somewhere because of the bmw comment (unless i put it on earlyer)

and incredibly expesnsive i think not?

make a basic log style tor even tuned length win turbo if whre going to go twin but one big single is better

$400 at most using steam pipe

twin turbos around 600 using std T3 secconed hand ones

twin super chargers $600 (sc-14)

intercooler 300

piping 500

after market ecu 1800

injectors 500

fuel pump/s 500

water and oil lines (make em my self) free

hows that sound?


and btw i said it wasnt going to happen anymore due to the eb being in a crash.

who are u too? its ur first post so mybe a mod or someone else of another fourm, or even some loser thats made two usernames to make him slef look like he has friends!


thats just all bolt on s**t! what about the engine internals? like new cam uprated valve springs, guides, valves, pistons, conrods, crankshaft, bearings, rings, youll have to change the compression ratio due to it being forced induction, and all that other s**t! you cant just bolt all that on and expect it to work. being as this is never done before there will be alot of mucking around to get it to work. and then theres diff, gearbox brakes suspension those three alone would cost about 5 g's + for decent gear. you cant just say im doing this and that and putting 5 turbos and 8 superchargers or what ever! so im just saying that you cant go around saying your gunna do all this crazy s**t to a car cause it makes you seem like an idiot, it wont matter how much money you have youll never find an engine builder to do it for you theyll just laugh in your face! so next time just think before you post stupid stuff. and by the way i know you from calaisturbo.com where i laughed as i watched you get flamed for your incredibly gay VL with all your neons and computer monitors , trying to rice up a perfectly good vl, seems youve spread you stupitidy to other websites.....


listen to me u little fagget, i did ot say i was going to make an engine that does 1000rwkw did i, and if u knew anything u would know that u dont have to have low comp to run boost! boost is only made by resirction, u obliviously dont know s**t about cars, i might even srat making this engine just for the run os it u wank, if u have alook on ct u will see that STOCKYMCSTOCK is doing the same thing atm with a RB30DET or is it a RB25DET, all i can remeber is that he is using a rb25 det head and runing a turbo and a sc, i WILL rip the engine outta my old ea that got writen off to just to rub it in your face that i can get one runnning, i will run one supercharger and one turbo mybe if i have more money i will do a twin and twin, i will have to see, but just for the fun of it i will have a FMIC to spice the piping up :D now stfu and give me till this time next year to get it finished u sk!


OK then smart a** its on! i will personally drive to where you are and kiss your shoe if you get it to work! if you dont get it to work ill just laugh at how much of an idiot you are and how much money you wasted trying to make your dumbass idea work! its all a big waste even thinking about it! so bring it on ill be following your progress. and remember it has to be in a car, run and make a decent amount of power and last more than 3 months. ITS ON!! lol
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:32 pm 
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Back in the early 80s there was a car called the Lancia Delta S4, it was rallied in Group B to very large success due to it amazing power through out its rev range, this was due to it having a supercharger and one massive turbo. As anyone with half a brain knows, a massive turbo on a little 4cyl motor wont even thing about spooling at low revs, so to give the car some added torque they gave it a supercharger. After a few seasons of frigging about with it ( and these guys had a massive budget ) they managed to get both units operating smoothly togther and they had plenty of power all over the rev range.
Now, this was a great idea back in the early days of turbocharging as any car with a turbo seemed to have heaps of lag and everybody just thought it was the norm and put up with it.
Today with modern engine managment and very effeciant turbos, lag has just about gone from all factory turbo cars and is only hanging around on big time drag cars.
Point of this is to point out that, yes its very doable, but in reallity its pointless to do on a large 4lt motor, UNLESS you are using a really big turbo... like big truck sized.
Lets say I decided to add a supercharger to my motor, what would happen... to start with the turbo is pretty big, but it starts to spool at 2000 rpm then at 2500 it suddenly goes straight to full boost, hitting its maximum set pressure at 2800. So, If I was hoping the S/C would help it along, it would, BUT it would be on boost for such a short time that your really wouldnt notice it.
As it is now, if you sit at the lights then snap the throttle open it spins the wheels and everyone else goes past you... so whats the point of trying to get more power down low on this motor???
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:20 pm 
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whats blowing into what? if you end up using one turbo and one sc which one will be first in line?

If the blower forces air into the turbo it should spool quicker not because of the extra air through turbo but the extra exhaust gasses generated by the boosted charge, the air flowing into the turbo would actually try to spin the impeller in the opposite direction to what it should be, remember the turbo usually sucks in the air instead of having it forcing in.

If you use a small blower it will restrict the air going to the turbo at higher rpm's, those toyota sc's will be way too restrictive even if you use their bypass function, an alternative would be too use the air bypass but also leave the pulley engaged so its pumping air as well, then you would have plenty of airflow but parasitic drag would also be higher.

Ferrari used this concept on one of their cars I believe, the sc was spun all the time and a series of valves/throttle bodies controlled the whole operation, the sc gave low end punch, the turbo's gave mid range, then the sc came in again up top once the turbo's ran out of puff.

The most practical way of doing a turboed and supercharged engine is too run the turbo pumping into the blower, then you can create a broader usefull rpm range and still have the aggressive mid range punch from the turbo.
Think of it like this, you can run a lower stall converter because the boost from the sc is available from idle, say 5psi@3000rpm, so you leave the line without traction problems, then once you hit the 60ft mark@4000rpm the turbo winds up and adds another 5psi, you scream down the track, shifting at ..say 6000rpm, then you power on to the line, now the benefit of the supercharger is the ability to run higher gears because even if the turbo starts to nose over above 6000rpm, you still have the boost from the supercharger which by now would be much higher than 5psi as the sc boost is a product of the rpm the engine is doing. So you have boost from idle that increases with rpm, and you have the additional boost from the turbo through its usefull range, and you have no detrimental boost loss up top. You can run say 3.9s instaed of 3.55 because the blower will allow a higher trap rpm, with the turbo you might aim to cross@6000rpm, with the blower you could cross@6500+rpm. The problem is that unless you bypass the turbo's altogether once they run out of puff you will overspeed them, and also the exhaust housing will be creating a restirction.

But it is a lot of stuff to have in one car, more things too fail, and the technology that is available now a single turbo with an electronic boost controller would do almost everything the same, except it would still nose over after some point.

It is an interesting topic and would be great to see it actually turn into something, but my opinion is that you will experience problems using that toyota blower, it will be the restriction whether its before or after the turbo, you will have better luck going for a sequential turbo system using two different sized turbos and some form of controlled exhaust manifold, there are some products available called exhaust cut outs, like a throttle body but can be set up to be controlled by vacuum/boost as they use wastegate actuators.

If you are really keen on doing it use a bigger blower and have the turbo pump into it, use a roots blower mounted on the intake manifold, and run an intercooled turbo blowing into it, I would size the turbo to come on a little later than normal, give yourself a chance to get moving before it kicks in. Something like this is practical but really only for show or bragging rights, it will get flogged by a properly built setup either turboed or blown, at the end of the day a turbo is more efficient at making boost but a blower (which consumes more power) can provide a broad boost range which may be more usefull in real life, you mix both of them together and it all turns to s**t basically, your efficiency goes down, parasitic drag is increased, weight is increased, complexity is increased, system design is much more complicated, fuel/ignition/and cam requirements are far from normal, not to say its cant be done but designing something that will be a good thing to use and maintain is better left to ferrari's engineers, you may be able to build it but I can promise you it will not perform well compared to the more commonly used designs, (ie properly sized single turbo).

Not saying you personally can't accomplish this but I think you best not waste your time and money, if you want something decent just build something that will work for your application. This idea is a good one but in reality it is not practical at all.

Good luck
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:41 pm 
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wow, now that would be a setup.

Ill drag u marmo when i get my inline 8 rolls royce diesel rear mounted with 6 turbos and 6 superchargers and my special diesel nos that im going to formulate next year............lol.


it will probobly cost me about $50 to do as i have a machine shop and chemical lab in my garage :P




I know its not the flaming section but its not a dreaming section either.....


either way goodluck

 

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