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Water to Air intercoolers 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:26 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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like your setup Joe. :wink:

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:33 pm 
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shav wrote:
like your setup Joe. :wink:


SHAV, hows your set up comming along???
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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:45 pm 
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TROYMAN wrote:
shav wrote:
like your setup Joe. :wink:


SHAV, hows your set up comming along???


Hey Troy, the car is still at the mechanics. Its been there 2 weeks. He's been under the pump while Ive been away on holidays. I will call past him today to get an update of where he is at, but I suspect I wont get the car back till next week. He has been having some trouble fitting pipework in under the bonnet, but I have faith in his abilities.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:09 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Hey fellas,

Just got the car back from Bruce.

Bruce wasnt at all enthusiastic about what had to be done to the car. He was getting to a point of giving up so he said. I must admit, when he did call me I though he torched the car as his manner over the phone was less than impressed.

I have mixed feelings of the results but overall I am happy.

I'll start with the bad points:
-He couldnt fit the thermo fan due to lack of room behind front bumper.
-He had to hack the top of the grille to get access to the heat exchanger.
-He couldnt get much more power out of the BP ultimate fuel.
-The 2.5" exhaust is now far too restrictive for more power.
-The smaller boost pulley has made the boost remain the same as before but this could be due to extra pipework that had to be added.
-I got slightly less power than I had expected. But I think that was due to restrictive exhaust.
-The injectors were at their max with the E85 tune.
-I have reached the maximum I can on an unopened motor.
-Its cost more than I wanted to get it all fitted

The positives:
-I reached my initial goal of getting over 200rwkw
-All the parts fit under the bonnet.
-The cooler core is cool to touch after a hard run
-Heaps easier to peel the tires now :P
-Heaps more response and torque
-No pinging at any temperature
-The engine feels stronger (could be a placebo effect)
-The water pump sounds silent when operating
-0-100kph times feels quicker
-Did I mention the torque??? Oh yeah, more torque definitely.

Run down of power outputs:
On BP Ultimate I got the best of 180rwkw (safe tune)
Remember a while back, I had the car tuned from Bruce for a dyno day last year and got the car tuned just for that day at a best of 194rwkw but that wasnt a fixed tune to the flash tuner. That was just for the dyno day. I only achieved a 194rwkw output after 2 runs on the dyno on a cold day. All other runs were risky with pinging evident. And that was the main reason why the tune wasnt a permanent one set to the flash tuner.

On a 60/40 blend of BP Ultimate and E85 fuel. I got the best of 205rwkw (safe tune)
One thing I noticed was the tractive effort torque had significantly increased.
Its not a mind blowing increase, but I was told the restriction was the cam and exhaust holding back decent numbers. Bruce had to spend a number of hours trying to extract as much power as possible but found it to be difficult due to the exhaust size and limited ability of the stock cam.

Refer to dyno print outs of before and after. If anyone can convert the tractive effort from the 205rwkw readout to Nm Id appreciate it.

Boost was kept to 9-10psi which was basically where it was prior to the intercooler being fitted. I figured due to the extra pipe work added and the smaller boost pulley being fitted it remained the same.

The pipework fromt he supercharger to the cooler is 2.5" mandrel as that is the opening size outlet that the supercharger has. There is a silicone reducer to connect the pipe with the 3" inlet of the cooler.

The pipework from the cooler to the TB is 3" mandrel.

I think having the 2.5" pipework initially has helped with the extra throttle response. This I found evident. Leaving the premises onto the main road, I found it easy as to light up the rear tires in first 2nd and 3rd gears. The torque is also noticeable.

Ultimately it is doing what its supposed to and that is to keep the intake temps cool as possible in degree any day. The extra power is a bonus. The lack of a thermo fan on the heat exchanger Im not sure how it will effect the water temps. Bruce reckons it shouldnt play too much of a problem when I get moving. Plus he reckons the twin thermos already on the car are already drawing air in while stationary anyway so it still is getting some air flow, just not from its own dedicated thermo. A good city drive will tell the story I guess.

Would I recommend this mod? In short, yes, but only with a 3" exhaust system and a cam to take advantage of the cooler air temps.

I'm in 2 minds as to whether I bother with the exhaust option at least of just enjoy it as is.

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Take the exhaust off at the extractors and go for a run around the block. If it makes much difference get the 3 inch done. It wouldnt take more than 30 minutes to check.
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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:51 pm 
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Dansedgli wrote:
Take the exhaust off at the extractors and go for a run around the block. If it makes much difference get the 3 inch done. It wouldnt take more than 30 minutes to check.


The tuner basically said, he cant extract anymore power. The exhaust is the weakest link. He said he can hear the exhaust struggle under load on the dyno. I think I need to do a 3" at the minimum.

On a side note, I took the car for another drive while the night was cool. Drove the car hard. When I got home, popped the bonnet and felt the cooler. Didnt even feel warm. Was pretty chuffed about that.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:12 pm 
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id say it would take some time for the water to heat up.
it would be more a test to see how it feels after a long drive as that is when heat soak will appear.
hopfully the exhaust allows it to open up a bit

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:29 pm 
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misk_one wrote:
id say it would take some time for the water to heat up.
it would be more a test to see how it feels after a long drive as that is when heat soak will appear.
hopfully the exhaust allows it to open up a bit


Yes the true test is peak hour traffic and bigger exhaust.

iceman is sending me an email of a DIY washer bottle mod to add to my waterlines to remove all unwanted air still stuck in the system to allow even cooler temps.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:14 am 
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JoeXR6 wrote:
Slick, no I'll be sticking with this pump. Thanks Daz, I'll work out how it can be plumbed up to remain this way then.

Cheers,
Joe


Davies Craig response: 'Subsequent to that sticker being placed on these units, we can advise you the orientation of the EBP is of no consequence. Feel free to mount the EBP as you prefer.'

So thats good news for my setup...I can set the pump up in any orientation (so long as water is flowing correct way!).

Shav, shame your setup didn't meet initial expectations, but good that you're still happy with it. I'll be keen to hear your feedback after some more driving time in different situations. On the positive, you now have a supercharged car that you can drive hard, without fear of detonation - I think being able to use it as intended is worth a lot.

A couple of questions about your setup:

1. Did Bruce fit the heat shielding he said he would, or is that core bolted to the original stainless heat shield that you had before?

2. Have you had a look inside the front bumper, to see how much room is there for a thermo? I don't know if the XR6 front has a lot more space, but my radiator/thermo fits with heaps of room to spare, and yours looked smaller in the pics (just had to remove one horn)? My radiator/thermo are each about 1inch thick. A thermo will of course be of no value while moving, but will do a lot to reduce heat soak when you're driving slowly or idling in traffic. This is where the non-intercooled SC engines really fall over, so it would be good to get one in there...

3. Have the pipes been HPC coated at all?

Some suggestions:

1. I've noticed that behind the radiator where the first length of intercooler pipe runs is very hot. That pipe will be keeping the air hot as it enters the intercooler core, making the core work extra hard. I'm thinking of wrapping mine in fibreglass exhaust lagging....you could pick this up cheaply on ebay and fit yourself in few minutes....might bring air temps down a little more? While you're at it you might like to insulate the rest of the pipework sitting over the exhaust as well. Alternatively you could spend more cash and go HPC coating!

2. Throw up some pics of the DIY washer bottle air removal mod!

3. Buy a $40 intake temperature probe from Jaycar (see autospeed). Drill a little hole in the intake pipe near the TB, and insert the temp probe. Seal it with some silastic, and mount the LCD display on your dash. This will cheaply give you accurate real time temperature readings, to see what intake temps you're getting now, and to check what improvements or otherwise any changes make.

Looking good though, and I suspect despite power outputs, it will be driving heaps better. Enjoy.

Joe

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Hi Joe, thanks for your interest in my car once again.

I'll try and answer your questions as best I can.

1. Bruce fitted a thick steel plate to the underside of the cooler and bolted it in the same position as some of the heat shield bolts. This plate is more of a mounting plate but also acts as a semi'insulator between the cooler and the extractor heat shield. After a hard run, I could stick my hand under the cooler itself and be able to keep my hand there and not feel like its getting burnt. It actually is working better than I expected. The stainless heat shield is still there and retains alot fo the heat underneath it. I can feel the difference in temps between that shield and the cooler. Its certainly substantially different.

2. I have had a look inside the bumper. There looks to be about 20mm tops of space between the heat exchanger and the reinforcing of the front bar. I personally thought that the bar could be modified to accept the thermo. But behind the heat exchanger I have a fat a** trans cooler that basically is taking up a lot of room which has me thinking that is the reason why the thermo wasnt fitted. The horns have been relocated to one side of the bar also. The heat exchanger I chose is 2" thick also which tends to chew up space. Bruce told me that even in gridlocked traffic, the wont behave irrationally at all. It should still drive ok until you get moving. Im yet to find out the true extents of this theory.

3. (1) None of the pipes have been HPC coated. The long length of pipe I had some initial thoughts about the heat getting too much from the engine bay. That was why I chose the bigger Bosch Cobra water pump to operate the intercooler over the cheap plasticy one. Even after a hard run in the car, I can pop the bonnet, and easily place my hand on the cooler and rear intake pipe and hold it there almost indefinitely. On one occasion after a hard run, I did this and noticed some water condensation coming off the cooler itself it was that cold. So something tells me the pump is pushing good amounts of cold water thru.
(2) I will put some pics up of the DIY washer bottle mod up a bit later on when I get time to do it.
(3) The temp probe sounds like a good idea too. Something I will do later on.

All in all, each time I drive the car, Im noticing more improved things about it. The extra throttle response, the lack of detonation, the stronger top end, and the added torque and power. Even though the dyno sheets say otherwise, I personally am noticing an improved change that after constant driving doesnt fade with heat like it used to.

With the power output though, I dont think its the intercooler's fault, but more so that Im trying to wring out every last kw out of a bog stock, unopened engine that was designed to do daily chores and commuting with a meager 157kw. The exhaust is the restricting factor now. That needs to increase to 3" system to take advantage of the extra timing added and cooler intake temps. More boost could also be added, although Im hesitant to do that to the little raptor unless I went the larger impeller mod Raptor has planned for their units for the future. A cam change is also required to take advantage on what I have already too.

For the future, I want to buy another car for daily commuting. I will then do a manual conversion to the AU and make it my weekend beast.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:06 pm 
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shav wrote:
All in all, each time I drive the car, Im noticing more improved things about it. The extra throttle response, the lack of detonation, the stronger top end, and the added torque and power. Even though the dyno sheets say otherwise, I personally am noticing an improved change that after constant driving doesnt fade with heat like it used to.


Shav, good to hear it seems to be working efficiently. Hopefully mine works as well! Keep us updated on how its running, economy, pros/cons, etc. Yours is the most comprehensive recent result in an interesting thread.

It will be interesting to see what the 3inch exhaust will produce. I'd think you'd see an extra 5-10kw at the most...but it might significantly improve driving characteristics throughout the rev range.

Thanks for the detailed results. This sort of first hand info is often hard to come by.

Joe

 

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 Post subject: Re: Water to Air intercoolers
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:27 am 
Getting Side Ways
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JoeXR6 wrote:
shav wrote:
All in all, each time I drive the car, Im noticing more improved things about it. The extra throttle response, the lack of detonation, the stronger top end, and the added torque and power. Even though the dyno sheets say otherwise, I personally am noticing an improved change that after constant driving doesnt fade with heat like it used to.


Shav, good to hear it seems to be working efficiently. Hopefully mine works as well! Keep us updated on how its running, economy, pros/cons, etc. Yours is the most comprehensive recent result in an interesting thread.

It will be interesting to see what the 3inch exhaust will produce. I'd think you'd see an extra 5-10kw at the most...but it might significantly improve driving characteristics throughout the rev range.

Thanks for the detailed results. This sort of first hand info is often hard to come by.

Joe


No worries Joe. I like that some are interested in the finer details of the car, not just the dyno sheet. There is a lot more to this setup as already said, but it will take more $$$ to unlock more potential.

I think the fact that the basic Intech is in fact 'basic' also is something going againt the power output too. i.e. cam and head.

 

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