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XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions 

 

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 Post subject: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:55 pm 
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Hi folks,

Just doing some research as i want to turbo my 96 XH XR6 ute, the plan was to build a budget turbo setup myself and aim for around 200kw with the stock engine internals..to do this i wanted to install a decomp plate + upgraded fuel pump and a wolf or megasquirt ECU with a GT35 turbo and external wastegate.

Now for the questions..is this engine a good starting point for a turbo build? i see that most people use the stock AU or BA engines for their turbo conversions but if possible i"d like to stick with the original motor as this is a budget build and buying a replacement motor is not part of the budget. :mrgreen:

ECUs: Megasquirt V Wolf..which is easier to install? again i"m on a budget here and don't want to try running the stock ECU as i want something that can be programmed to better handle boost and custom mapping! and hopefully prevent me cooking the motor or turbo..

Injectors: My stock injectors, will they handle lowish boost and around 200KW?

Exhaust manifold: where can i get one made or what can i use on the XH XR6 motor? EL perhaps?? would it be hard to make one up from the stock XR6 Exhaust manifold?

Fuel: With a good tune and aftermarket ECU would it be possible to run on reg unleaded..or will it be 98 all the way? am thinking of maybe going LPG if this is the case which will add slightly more complexity to the build.

Well that's about all i can think of right now! sorry to bombard you with so many questions but i"m pretty excited about this and would like some feedback before i begin, feel free to add in anything you think Ive missed or to ask any questions.

Cheers.
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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:30 am 
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I'm converting my ef xr6 to turbo with a gt35r so I can give you a bit of an idea of what I'm doing seeing as we are both using the same platform.

Ok. So I'm using just a log style exhaust manifold. You can buy these either from snort performance or 6 boost make really good ones. Ofcourse tuned length will be better for flow.

I'm running a Garrett gt35r with a 1.06 rear housing with a 50mm external gate and boost controller.

Ok so for the ecu side of things I'm running the stock ecu with a j3 chip to retard my timing for when it's on boost and for fuel I'm probably going to be using either a Bosch 044 or 023 intank with a 12:1 FMU (fuel management unit) this is like a rising rate fuel regulator but rises as a much higher rate.

If your goin to go For a piggyback ecu. I would just use a normal rising rate reg as the tune can compensate for fuel delivery. Ie injector pulse width outputs can be tuned.

That's all I can think of at the moment

Have any questions just ask :)

 

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Just Falcon Around.
EF xr6t
Garrett gt3582r, 6 boost manifold, turbosmart 50mm gate, microtech ltx-12s, eboost, 044, 60lb siemens deka, 3.45 Tru Trac. 333.4rwhp@12psi Tuned by P.I.T.S

Build Thread
http://www.fordmods.com/the-garage-f53/ef-turbo-build-t103080.html

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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:00 pm 
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no need for a decomp plate if your goal is only 200rwkw, a stock comp engine can handle over 10psi

my set up consists of au3 xr6 engine 9.6 compression, a garrett to4e turbo, 6boost manifold (which are tuned length)
walbro 255 fuel pump, 65lb injectors, std au fuel reg and ems ecu..no need for a rising rate reg if you going aftermarket ecu

currently making 230rwkw@7.5psi
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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:52 pm 
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I agree, a decompression plate is more hassle than it's worth. Your will need custome head bolts or studs, (not cheap) a custom timing chain, (also not cheap) plus the cost of the plate itself. Then you may have issues with the increased height of the engine, the XR6 BBM will be getting awful close to the bonnet with any added height.
Save your pennies, pick up an AU complete engine, and read Troymans build thread. You could do a lot worse than copying his setup. Put the original engine aside, for if (or when) you have a engine problem, sell the car, whatever.

 

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EL Wagon Build Thread http://www.fordmods.com/the-garage-f53/sooty72-s-ef-futura-wagon-long-term-project-t90025.html
XH Ute Thread http://www.fordmods.com/post1138970.html#p1138970

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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:56 pm 
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sooty72 wrote:
I agree, a decompression plate is more hassle than it's worth. Your will need custome head bolts or studs, (not cheap) a custom timing chain, (also not cheap) plus the cost of the plate itself. Then you may have issues with the increased height of the engine, the XR6 BBM will be getting awful close to the bonnet with any added height.
Save your pennies, pick up an AU complete engine, and read Troymans build thread. You could do a lot worse than copying his setup. Put the original engine aside, for if (or when) you have a engine problem, sell the car, whatever.


Wow how big are the decompression plates you are using? :?
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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:14 pm 
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TROYMAN wrote:
no need for a decomp plate if your goal is only 200rwkw, a stock comp engine can handle over 10psi

my set up consists of au3 xr6 engine 9.6 compression, a garrett to4e turbo, 6boost manifold (which are tuned length)
walbro 255 fuel pump, 65lb injectors, std au fuel reg and ems ecu..no need for a rising rate reg if you going aftermarket ecu

currently making 230rwkw@7.5psi



Yeh my bad. I meant like a higher pressure fuel pressure regulator. Seeing as your only running 7.5 psi it wouldn't be neccesary.

How much boost will a stock regulator handle?

 

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Just Falcon Around.
EF xr6t
Garrett gt3582r, 6 boost manifold, turbosmart 50mm gate, microtech ltx-12s, eboost, 044, 60lb siemens deka, 3.45 Tru Trac. 333.4rwhp@12psi Tuned by P.I.T.S

Build Thread
http://www.fordmods.com/the-garage-f53/ef-turbo-build-t103080.html

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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Its not the reg that runs out. Its a combination of the reg/pump and injectors.

If you use big enough injectors you would'nt need to touch the reg as the fuel requirements would still be met even though the fuel pressure is lower.

Most factory turbo cars run a 1:1 rising rate.

I use an XR6T reg in my AU. Not sure if it will fit an early E series motor though.

Ive got a standard AU motor and have run up to 17psi with no detonation on full boost.

42lb injectors, Bosch 023, GT35r, turbosmart 50mm external gate, 6boost manifold, nizpro plenum, J3 chip.
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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:38 pm 
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xr6_corbin wrote:
TROYMAN wrote:
no need for a decomp plate if your goal is only 200rwkw, a stock comp engine can handle over 10psi

my set up consists of au3 xr6 engine 9.6 compression, a garrett to4e turbo, 6boost manifold (which are tuned length)
walbro 255 fuel pump, 65lb injectors, std au fuel reg and ems ecu..no need for a rising rate reg if you going aftermarket ecu

currently making 230rwkw@7.5psi



Yeh my bad. I meant like a higher pressure fuel pressure regulator. Seeing as your only running 7.5 psi it wouldn't be neccesary.

How much boost will a stock regulator handle?



a std reg can handle alot, its more to do with injector size and fuel flow more than high fuel pressure.
i have run the car at 15psi but i have clutch issues that limit me at the moment..

it really depends on what you use as a tuning option..
if you just use the factory ecu with std injectors than a 12:1 rising reg will raise the pressure enough (@10psi it will raise fuel pressure to aproxx 120psi) to force extra fuel through the std injectors..making fuel line and fuel pump failure more common.
if you go with the factory ecu with a j3 chip and larger injectors you may still need a 2;1 rising rate reg depending on what ohm injectors are used and how much adjustment the j3 allows in the fuel map..
imo the best option, but normally the most expencive is the aftermarket ecu with the large injectors..
my factory fuel pressure reg starts out at 36psi and does rise and holds a steady 50 psi through out the rev range..
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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:41 pm 
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xr6_corbin: Hi mate, like the sound of your build it looks similar to mine but the turbo i am going to use isn't a real garret its a GT35 or GT3582 hybrid copy, which is a water/oil cooled free floating design turbo, this is it here: http://tinyurl.com/28dbtty (scroll down the page to see the specs) i was planning to throw in a Tial 38mm ebay wastegate and a HKS bov to suit (another ebay special)

Thanks for the info on the manifolds! wish they were cheaper :( i will probably go with a log style for now as it will meet my power requirements easily, might consider a tuned length down the track or try my hand at making one if i get really enthusiastic. In regards to the ECU i did want to try running a piggyback setup similar to the one Chef suggests in his DIY thread with maybe 42lbs injectors and of course a bosch 023 or Walbro 255 intank fuel pump..thinking of going bosch as Ive read that some people have had issues with the walbro although the walbro pump was cheap ($95)

I also want to run a front mount intercooler but am not sure of the size yet i have to work out what will fit under the front bumper and i wanna try make it as stealth as possible as i don't want anything that's gunna block out the sunlight from passing japanese tourists :mrgreen:

Also regarding the decomp plate, i didn't realize i could get away with the stock compression ratio which for my car is only 9.35:1, this is gunna be a daily driver so i wanna try keep it fairly tame and not an engine that's gunna ping its head off and drink 98 octane fuel..but somehow i dont think i will be able to avoid that..a pure gas setup might be in the cards at a later date :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:14 am 
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Yep piggyback ecu and bigger injectors are on the cards for me next yr when I plan to spend some more $$ It's the only way to get the most out of your set up.

That turbo looks like it has a pretty small rear housing?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it was a .64? I know with these 4.0l you would need atleast a .82 or bigger. You don't wanna restrict it.

Also I would go a Bosch, I have been told not go to walbro either? Not sure the exact reason but I think Geoff from snort told me that.

The log manifold can support the power your looking for. The tuned length ones do improve spool up time and flow though...

I'm going to post a build thread soon, just pulled my new motor out of my donor car and it's on a stand now ready to play with.... Going to pull the solid heater hose off to get my water return line for the turbo brazed up next week.

Where were you going to run your water inlet and outlet from? I read it's best to get the feed from lower part of your thermostat housing ie t piece off the coolant temp sensor and the return just into the heater pipe behind the water pump.

I have also painted the front of my intercooler black to keep it stealth ;)

Cheers,
Corbin

 

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Just Falcon Around.
EF xr6t
Garrett gt3582r, 6 boost manifold, turbosmart 50mm gate, microtech ltx-12s, eboost, 044, 60lb siemens deka, 3.45 Tru Trac. 333.4rwhp@12psi Tuned by P.I.T.S

Build Thread
http://www.fordmods.com/the-garage-f53/ef-turbo-build-t103080.html

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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:06 am 
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the only reason not to go with the walbro is if your running a 12:1 rising reg...
the walbro is a good pump but its designed for high flow not high pressure..
so when people put 12;1 rising rate reg on them they dont last..
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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:52 am 
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TROYMAN wrote:
the only reason not to go with the walbro is if your running a 12:1 rising reg...
the walbro is a good pump but its designed for high flow not high pressure..
so when people put 12;1 rising rate reg on them they dont last..


Ohh ok..... Makes sense then :)

 

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Just Falcon Around.
EF xr6t
Garrett gt3582r, 6 boost manifold, turbosmart 50mm gate, microtech ltx-12s, eboost, 044, 60lb siemens deka, 3.45 Tru Trac. 333.4rwhp@12psi Tuned by P.I.T.S

Build Thread
http://www.fordmods.com/the-garage-f53/ef-turbo-build-t103080.html

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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Xr6_corbin: Hey i found some interesting info about a new J3 setup that's in testing which will allow boost mapping with the stock ECU..have a look at this thread on booted falcon: http://www.boostedfalcon.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17020 i just stumbled upon this when i was searching for info on j3's sounds very promising.

About the turbo can you elaborate more? i"m still trying to figure out the ideal turbo size for a 4L engine and thought this one would be big enough to push at least 300HP, it probably doesn't leave much head room for future power upgrades but i"m only going to be running stock engine internals for starters.

I found a guy on ebay that sells tuned or log style manifolds which are cheaper then 6boost or snort..not sure on finish compared to those 2 companies the log style looks a bit rough but the tuned manifold looked decent.

I'm not sure where im going to run the water inlet/outlet from yet good question! Ive only figured out the oil return lines and i just copied that from other turbo builds Ive seen, i plan to do my intercooler in black also :) wanna keep it hidden as i want my ute to look fairly stock from the outside.

Cheers.
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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Boosted_XH wrote:
Xr6_corbin: Hey i found some interesting info about a new J3 setup that's in testing which will allow boost mapping with the stock ECU..have a look at this thread on booted falcon: http://www.boostedfalcon.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17020 i just stumbled upon this when i was searching for info on j3's sounds very promising.

About the turbo can you elaborate more? i"m still trying to figure out the ideal turbo size for a 4L engine and thought this one would be big enough to push at least 300HP, it probably doesn't leave much head room for future power upgrades but i"m only going to be running stock engine internals for starters.

I found a guy on ebay that sells tuned or log style manifolds which are cheaper then 6boost or snort..not sure on finish compared to those 2 companies the log style looks a bit rough but the tuned manifold looked decent.

I'm not sure where im going to run the water inlet/outlet from yet good question! Ive only figured out the oil return lines and i just copied that from other turbo builds Ive seen, i plan to do my intercooler in black also :) wanna keep it hidden as i want my ute to look fairly stock from the outside.

Cheers.


Yeah jason from T.I performance told me that they are testing them, but nothing promised as yet. That was about 2 weeks ago.

ok so with the turbo ive got its a gt356 or 3540 as other people would call them. The compressor cover is a A/R .70 and the exhaust side is a 1.06...... this is a similar size as to whats on the BF turbos i think. Basically the smaller rear housing you go the more responsive its going to be. ie come onto boost earlier. A .64 will be too small for a 4L. the smallest i would go would be around a .82 or .86 ........ its just like putting a restrictive exhaust on the car, it wont flow enough and could possibly ruin the seals in the turbo...

Ill post pics next week of where im running my water lines once i get the fittings brazed up.

Yeah the black cooler is the way to go, some people say that painting it black will make it lose a bit of efficiency in cooling the intake air temp. But id rather that small loss and make it look sleeper so i dont attract attention. Also i dont know whether i will be able to get it mod plated as most people tell me that it cant be done...... but i think the rules can be bent according to some engineers. (QLD)

cheers

 

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Just Falcon Around.
EF xr6t
Garrett gt3582r, 6 boost manifold, turbosmart 50mm gate, microtech ltx-12s, eboost, 044, 60lb siemens deka, 3.45 Tru Trac. 333.4rwhp@12psi Tuned by P.I.T.S

Build Thread
http://www.fordmods.com/the-garage-f53/ef-turbo-build-t103080.html

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 Post subject: Re: XH XR6 engine Turbo Advice/questions
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:33 pm 
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xr6_corbin wrote:

Yeah jason from T.I performance told me that they are testing them, but nothing promised as yet. That was about 2 weeks ago.

ok so with the turbo ive got its a gt356 or 3540 as other people would call them. The compressor cover is a A/R .70 and the exhaust side is a 1.06...... this is a similar size as to whats on the BF turbos i think. Basically the smaller rear housing you go the more responsive its going to be. ie come onto boost earlier. A .64 will be too small for a 4L. the smallest i would go would be around a .82 or .86 ........ its just like putting a restrictive exhaust on the car, it wont flow enough and could possibly ruin the seals in the turbo...

Ill post pics next week of where im running my water lines once i get the fittings brazed up.

Yeah the black cooler is the way to go, some people say that painting it black will make it lose a bit of efficiency in cooling the intake air temp. But id rather that small loss and make it look sleeper so i dont attract attention. Also i dont know whether i will be able to get it mod plated as most people tell me that it cant be done...... but i think the rules can be bent according to some engineers. (QLD)

cheers


Apparently they are awaiting some dyno testing results and a few other things before its going to be released, if they can make it work that's the setup I'll use as it will be cheaper then a piggy back ECU setup and easier to install.

Regarding turbo's would this one be a better choice do you think? http://tinyurl.com/295ksef or how bout this one: http://tinyurl.com/2dmwudd the housing looks really small compared to the Super T70 but it has a bigger AR size?

Also regarding intercoolers, I"m pretty sure it can be done the issue is with how you run the piping to the intercooler through the front end of the chassis. Most people were just cutting big holes in the front of the car to make the piping fit and QLD transport claims that this weakens the chassis strength or rigidity of the front end. To get around that issue you can use these: http://tinyurl.com/28a2tjn

Cheers.
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