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351 Cleveland into EL Fairmont 

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:51 am 
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SQUEAK wrote:
Thanks heaps, do you know how he got it registered on fuel?

Cause I was under the impression only way 2 get a clevo registered and enginerred was on gas due to the engine being older than the car.

So, I can leave the ecu plugged in, just not connect the wires that arnt needed? Or trick them.

Also I see that car is a manual, Do you know what box is in it?


Sorry Squeak,
I just showed you a pic of the EFI cleveland in my XE ute as an example of how you can run with with the Ford EEC and actually have fuel injection working(mind you I thought you'd recognise the X-series engine bay). To have the Tacho,and Engine temp working correctly you'll need the EEC to remain and you'd need to connect to the original sensors that came off the engine to it. The most difficult to achieve would be the rpm signal, depending on which distributor you used. The EEC expects a square wave with 6(4.0L) or 8(5.0L) pulses per cycle with one signature PIP(shorter pulse than the rest). If you used an aftermarket Hall effect distributor with 8 teeth you would likely achieve your goal because the signature PIP is only for start of fuel timing and not required for rpm calculation. A VR(ie like an XD/E electronic)type distributor could be used but would need some signal conditioning to square up the pulse for the EEC to accept it. I don't know whether the 4.0 cluster is different to the 5.0 one in terms of rpm signal calculation but this could easily be tested by plugging a 4.0 cluster into a 5.0 car(or vice versa)and checking the rpm.
The Voltmeter,Oil pressure,fuel and speedo are still connected without the EEC so they will work as normal.

It is incorrect that you can only register a late model with LPG only....people just do it because it's easier. If you build and calibrate the engine correctly you can get it passed. You need to have the car ADR drive cycle and shed tested at Orbital engine company in Perth.

The EF I saw was a race car so no rego. There are a couple of 351wEB's and an EA 351c that are registered though. One EB has truck speed density EECIV and is stock(apart from intake of course)....They registered it because it was demonstrated to be stock and running the stock truck EEC which is calibrated to pass tighter U.S. emissions regs. The other is worked and has LPG but still required testing. The EA was an '88 model and has been passed with a 351c and factory thermoquad carb!....unfortunately this car I have only seen from a distance.
I know the LPG 351w EB guy got jack of the gas and stuck a holley on it....of course if he gets caught it's yellow sticker time.

BTW It's a 'loader in the ute.

Pete.
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:13 am 
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Thanks heaps this is good stuff!

Id rather run a holley and on fuel, but getting a clevo to pass an emission test equivilent to an el 5L would be really hard.

And setting up injection on a clevo, I can imagine would be a big expense.

Only other thing I can think of is the injected 351w out of the trucks in the states... Only thing there is buying the engine is say $2500 and the output is pretty poor, where as $2500 into a clevo will get it going very very well.

Like injection would be the ultimate, like in your pic, I know holley do a universal multipoint fuel injection setup with a 1000cfm 4 barrel throttle body and stuff, but I dont have any idea what its worth.

And if I went the lpg route, ive been looking at the twin carb, twin mixer stuff from gas research.

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:26 am 
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I know this is slightly off topic and not many people will care, but I would have thought that a stock 4.0 would be as fast, if not faster than a 351 (and use a lot less petrol doing it, not that I care :) ). Wouldn't sound anywhere near as good though...
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:04 am 
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downingj wrote:
I know this is slightly off topic and not many people will care, but I would have thought that a stock 4.0 would be as fast, if not faster than a 351 (and use a lot less petrol doing it, not that I care :) ). Wouldn't sound anywhere near as good though...


Well what can I say except...AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR HA HA HA HA HA HAR!
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:34 am 
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Ill agree with xr9ute....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:42 am 
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I don't see how it's funny???

Depending on which model Falcon your Clevo came out of (I'll use the 351 in the XC Cobra for example) it has 149kw. An EF-AU 4.0 has 157kw.

You do the math....
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:44 am 
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Anyways, while on the subject, What kind of 5speed boxes will bolt up to a clevo, without the need for custom bits?

Like I can go a top loader I know that but only a 4 speed. I know a 5 speed b/w will fit out of the xds and such as they came factory, but what about a t5 and the likes? Only other thing is clutch, as the clevos were hydraulic and the e-series cable.... And an 11inch cable clutch, I dont think so!!!

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:49 am 
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Simply put torque is the key not hp, And anyway, Even a very mild clevo, eg, just a manifold carb and exhaust, is 300+ hp, without touching anything, as I have a friend with an xd, that ran 14.3, With a stock 1970's 351 bar a duel plane manifold 600 vac holley and a set of extractors, standard c4 no stall and 2.92 diff gears and thats on street tyres.

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:25 pm 
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My untouched clevo made 136 rwkw before I modded it and with only changing the top end we are looking over the 200rwkw mark now, so I think the clevo is a great motor that you can work no your self, very simple motors, and that can be modded very cheaply.

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:03 pm 
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downingj wrote:
I don't see how it's funny???

Depending on which model Falcon your Clevo came out of (I'll use the 351 in the XC Cobra for example) it has 149kw. An EF-AU 4.0 has 157kw.

You do the math....


Ok sorry downingj,
Seriously though... that math does not add up because the Hp measurement standards were different between then and now. Mikgans' statement backs that up. Couple that with the massive torque difference and you can see why you're in front with a 351. You've also got to factor in the potential....Clevelands pick up a massive increase in torque and Hp just by adding extractors! About the only disadvantage is weight but that problem is minimised by alloy heads and intake. In fact it is not worth porting the stock heads anymore when you can buy CHI,AFD and Edelbrock heads that cream the stock versions.
Squeak, the 5spd BW is about as weak as you can get...the 4spd Single rail is in fact tougher. The gearboxes mentioned earlier are what you need.
A 5.0 cable setup will work but I would certainly make my own hydraulic version to suit.

Pete.
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:52 pm 
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downingj wrote:
I don't see how it's funny???

Depending on which model Falcon your Clevo came out of (I'll use the 351 in the XC Cobra for example) it has 149kw. An EF-AU 4.0 has 157kw.

You do the math....


LoL i read that 3 times and just kept pissing myself laughing.

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:08 pm 
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On the subject of boxes, What about a injected 5L windsor auto box.

Would that bolt up, Cause ive heard they can be modded up to hold a decent amount of hp!

Only thing, is could it be made to run without all the computers, is there a contoller that you can just add to the box, and make it full manual or something?

 

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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:10 am 
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SQUEAK wrote:
On the subject of boxes, What about a injected 5L windsor auto box.

Would that bolt up, Cause ive heard they can be modded up to hold a decent amount of hp!

Only thing, is could it be made to run without all the computers, is there a contoller that you can just add to the box, and make it full manual or something?


The 5.0L BTR 4spd auto has it's own control unit that is separate to the EEC up to EL. AU on were controlled by the EEC. It would certainly bolt up but you would have to change the balance weight on the flexplate from 50oz to the 28oz that Clevelands(and all other windsors for that matter) have. I have heard something about super tough BTR's being built for BA turbos which I'm lead to believe already have the tougher internals developed for it's use in the Maserati twin-turbo V8.
Baumann engineering in the U.S. do stand alone laptop programmable trans controllers but I don't know if they have one suitable for the seven solenoid setup that the BTR trans has? They do have them for the AODE/4R70 gearboxes and even the E4OD/4R100 which all have five solenoids. This brings me to my next suggestion....Use a 4R70W. They are very tough as std and can be made much much stronger(how does 9's in an '03 Mustang Cobra sound?). Plus the "W" part means Wide ratio so, instead of the 2.40 1st gear of practically every other Ford auto(including the BTR!) they have a 2.84 1st gear. This means you can accelerate faster from stop without the need for a higher stall speed or low diff gears. You could use a smallblock E4OD(as used in the '93-'95 F150 Lightning) but they are physically too large to fit in a Falcon trans tunnel.

Pete.
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:15 pm 
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How far have you looked into the gas setup. You can now get some pretty trick parts now. Like gas injectors that are run from the stock computer.

 

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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:44 pm 
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