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clevo stroker build up 

 

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 Post subject: clevo stroker build up
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:54 pm 
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posted a while ago that i was planning a rebuild for the clevo block i have in the shed only now i have a job and money on teh way so its time 2 get serious about it.

just after some hints/ tips and opinions on thinks

atm i have planned and budjeted for the following
* scat 393 rotating asembly
* KEC street performer 3 headwork
* crow cam, part number:21700 with matching valve train kit
* 750 holley 4 barrel with vac sec
* open for ideas on the rest

also planning on running a C4 with manual valve bodies, stage 2 shift kit and a short 1st gr and long 3rd for cruisin.

 

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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:10 pm 
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What power you after?
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:25 pm 
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400+ RELIABLE hp, but more interested in a massive tourgue reading hence the stroker

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:17 am 
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mmm tourque

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:12 am 
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Go for fuel injection. I have a Redline Street Torker alloy manifold for the clevelands that has injector boss' cast into it. Use a ratted out 4 barrel mech holley without tanks, venturis or jets as a throttle body. You'd be suprised how cheap you can do it.

You will only get a little more power, but you get way better reliability and driveability. A good thing if you are looking at cruising rather than all out racing.

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:34 am 
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With the strokers torque you'll be able to keep the diff gears low for better economy and cruiseability.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:57 pm 
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Hey,

Ive had a bit to do with clevelands and this is what id do....

1. Stroker sounds good.
2.Head work sounds good, make sure the valve stems are cut down on top of the head otherwise rockers hit them with big cams.
3.With the cam id go the 21648 as its a duel pattern design and is a better design.
4.Use a double row timing chain...dont use gears!!!
5.With the carb dont get vac sec with the above combo your going to at least need an 800dp holley
6.A high rise single plain manifold like the funnel web ones work well.
7.Put a plastic spacer between the carb and manifold to stop heat transfer.
8.Decent set of 4-1 extractors and duel 3inch exhausts.
9.Get a 3500-4000 stall converter, Donimator street series would be the one id go for.
10. And around 3.7 diff gears.

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:03 pm 
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Since the bloke wants a cruzer I think 3.7 gears would be a bit too high don't you think. He'd probably be aiming for no higher than 3.32:1 diff gears.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:14 pm 
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no fun in that then!!!

Look at the cam he first wanted, it requires at least 3:5 diff gears!

 

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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:02 pm 
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SQUEAK wrote:
no fun in that then!!!

Look at the cam he first wanted, it requires at least 3:5 diff gears!


But that is for a 351 not 393, it will be working earlier than in a 351, those rev ranges are only estimates for a 351 (Just see what happens when you fit a 351C spec cam to a 302C). Contact Crow to confirm. (You really need to know the flow of the heads, intake, headers and compression ratio etc for Crow to give you the right cam selection)

What heads are you starting with? 2V or 4V, what is the KEC performer 3 head work, the website just generalises for any head, that is a worry. What ever heads you get, best to pay the extra for LPG type, you then know it can at least handle PULP.

393 Cleveland stroker will have awful rod to stroke ratio so best to not rev it hard and keep revs low on the hwy, short rods and long stroke causes high piston speed and poor rod angles, this increase bore wear, one of the reasons 302C last longer than 351C.

Saying this, higher piston speed will increase low down torque, but there is much more torque produced from better rod to stroke ratio, that is why they sell 351C pistons to suit 302C rods.

Double pumpers aren't for economy, and are shocking if incorrectly tuned or to large CFM for engine requirements, you can get away with more with vacuum secondaries.

Dual plane is better for low down but single is better for top end, I agree with the funnel web type, but use fuel injection (single plane is better with this), not a carby, what century is it now?

4-1 Headers on Clevelands hit the ground unless it is a 4WD, ask anyone that has used them, but if you are for all top end these are the ones to get, remember to go large header pipe diameter no mater what type you choose, you will need it.

3" Exhaust dual exhaust, might work, might not, but it will sound damn good, but low down torque might be sacrificed.

Probably won't need a big stall converter with that capacity and cam spec, 2500rpm advertise stall would probably work out to be 3000rpm with the torque that capacity should produce, but with the likely amount of torque produce don't buy a cheap one. (The whole combination sets the power range, not the just the cam)

Depending on what you want and where you mainly drive, 3.25-3.5 would probably be a good all round ratio, you could go 3:1 depending where the cam really starts with that stroke, but it maybe a little high geared if you have drag racing in mind.
Depending where the power starts, finishes and the weight of the car really makes the difference, you might end up needing 3.7's or higher but I doubt it unless you are racing every week.

By the way, 9in LSD or Detroit locker differential will be the safest shot, that is the reason for the ratios I choose.

Better to find a good engine builder with a top rep, go to the drags and ask around, tell them what you want from the engine and ask if they have any customers with a setup like that and what the builder recommends, if they can build reliable engines for street and strip, and get good numbers, it might be best to go with the engine builders ideas, they have the experience where it counts. This might be better for you in the long run, less headaches and wasted money buying the wrong parts.

 

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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:02 pm 
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awsome guys, that exactly what i was after. cheers

 

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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:27 pm 
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"393 Cleveland stroker will have awful rod to stroke ratio so best to not rev it hard and keep revs low on the hwy, short rods and long stroke causes high piston speed and poor rod angles, this increase bore wear, one of the reasons 302C last longer than 351C. "


you must be thinking of teh windsor blocks,,, teh cleveland 393 strokers have a rod ratio comparible to the 330 windsor stroker's
the 347 windsor is much much worse, even with the pistons that have the pin intersect the rings.

the 393 clevo stoker puts more wear on the engine than a standard 351 yes,, but not as much as a 347 windsor,, or 406 cleveland.

"Double pumpers aren't for economy, and are shocking if incorrectly tuned or to large CFM for engine requirements, you can get away with more with vacuum secondaries. "

yes, i guess thats why he's building a 393,,,,,, for economy.


"4-1 Headers on Clevelands hit the ground unless it is a 4WD, ask anyone that has used them, but if you are for all top end these are the ones to get, remember to go large header pipe diameter no mater what type you choose, you will need it. "

^^^ hell yeah, i have tuned interference 4-1 headers,,, they scrapr on every bump, and my driveway,,, going tri Y


" they have the experience where it counts. This might be better for you in the long run, less headaches and wasted money buying the wrong parts."
^^ thats probably teh best idea youve said,, a LOT of people spend a LOT of money, without doing the recearch first,,, be better to throw the money down the fuel tank.
but make sure you get the RIGHT advice, not just advice,, and ALLways get a second opinion. even if its for something i tell you pauli.

 

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Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:33 pm 
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Sketch wrote:
"
and ALLways get a second opinion. even if its for something i tell you pauli.


hench this thread

 

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Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:12 am 
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Sketch wrote:
you must be thinking of the Windsor blocks,,, the Cleveland 393 strokers have a rod ratio comparable to the 330 Windsor stroker's
the 347 Windsor is much much worse, even with the pistons that have the pin intersect the rings.

the 393 clevo stoker puts more wear on the engine than a standard 351 yes,, but not as much as a 347 Windsor,, or 406 Cleveland.



These are all Scat stroker kits from this site http://www.pavtek.com.au/pp_scatra.html

SK1460601H030 FORD 351C TO 393C 3.850" 6.000" FLAT TOP 4340 STEEL $2750
Rod to stroke ratio = 1.56
Remember this is a Cleveland block, not a 351W or 400M that has a higher deck height, that piston pin will intersect the rings as you would say.

SK1453101H030 FORD 302WIND. TO 347W 3.400" 5.400" FLAT TOP 4340 STEEL $2564
SK1453601H030 FORD 302WIND. TO 347W 3.400" 5.400" DISH TOP 4340 STEEL $2660

Rod to stroke ratio = 1.59 This is better than a 393C stroker.

Some standard approx deck heights: 302/5.0L 8.2", 302/351C 9.2", 351W 69/70 9.48 & 9.5" onwards, 351/400M 10.2".

I would like to see a 406 Cleveland, that would be a shocking combo (I actually wanted to build one when I was much younger when there wasnt stroker kits available over 378CI for Clevelands), sure you aren't talking about a 406W, you can fit longer rods in a 351W but it still would be far from optimal rod to stroke ratio unless it had longer rods than 6.2".

An acquaintance had a 420CI Windsor, it didn't last long (Died coming home from the Nats), he went back to 393 so it would last longer, I have no idea where that XF is these days to find out how it lasted.

This might be some interesting facts?
Factory 400M has a stroke of 4" and rod length of 6.58, ratio = 1.645
Those rods in a 351W standard stroke (can buy pistons off the shelf for this) ratio = 1.88

351W with aftermarket 6.2 rods standard stroke (pistons self items again) = 1.77

393W 3.85 stroke 6.2" rods = 1.61

351C 3.5" stroke 5.78"rods (standard) = 1.65

351C 3.5" stroke 6.030" rods (302C) = 1.72

302C standard = 2.01 ("wow" and this is closer to what the Holden boys go for)

302W 3" stroke, stock 5.09" rods = close to 1.7 (reverse rods to get approx 15hp increase but increase noise and bore wear)

302w 3" stroke, stock 289 5.15" rods, stock pistons (have check piston to head clearance) = Approx 1.72 (around 15hp increase just using these rods, 302Boss used 289HP rods)


Sketch wrote:
Damage wrote:
"Double pumpers aren't for economy, and are shocking if incorrectly tuned or to large CFM for engine requirements, you can get away with more with vacuum secondaries. "


yes, i guess thats why he's building a 393,,,,,, for economy.


Well I don't know, just because it is 393 doesn't mean it will be the worse thing on fuel.
I use to own a 351C that only did 200kms at best with 68ltrs.
I tested a few Holleys, 600vac (choke removed and flowed, jetting and power valves played with) but lost to much power or drive-ability, 750vac not modified but different jetting and power valves trialled and didn't make much difference to fuel economy but the 750 made s**t loads more power with a slight bottom end loss, it was running sweet and light grey pipe, then I have seen a 455ci get better fuel economy not running that sweet, looking like it was running hell rich.

From experience with DP Holleys I would never use one again unless it was totally necessary, remember old style Holleys often blow power valves when they backfire, poor setup, tune or labouring can cause backfires, more likely to happen with a DP. My preference is Thermoquad if you can find one is good condition, better than a factory Holley.

 

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Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:39 am 
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I would talk to CROW about the cam as there specs are to suit STD stroke combo's as you have increased stroke cam timing will need to changed to suit.

750 holley vac sec good choice as they can be tuned to snap the sec open on command. ie light spring in vac pot.
Intake defiantly single plane as low end torque will not be a problem with cubes.
Extractors ground clearance is a prob but performance won't be.
Tri y extractors mandrel bent do offer good power through the rev's merge collectors help.
Try and talk to someone who actually has this stroker to get there input .

These are olny suggestion
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