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 Post subject: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:32 am 
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Just want peoples opinions on a EFI fuel pump to support high HP.Its for an EB sedan V8. I can get an A1000 for cheap but i think i need a secondary pump and a surge tank to feed the A1000? Is this correct? I dont really have much room for a surge tank!
Or should i just get the in tank 044 (or 040 cant remember which one)?
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:16 am 
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"High HP" doesn't mean much....how much hp and is it blown or turbocharged?
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:27 pm 
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yeah sorry, 700hp+, twin turbo.
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:43 pm 
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Ok, we'll assume 750hp.

To start we will work out your injector size needed.

Injector size(Lb/hr) = HP x BSFC(Brake Specific Fuel Consumption)/Number of cyls
Assuming your engine with a turbo is more efficient than stock...usually the case when modified. You could see BSFC under 0.5. Say 0.48?

So you get;
(750 x 0.48)/8
360/8 = 45lb/hr

Then of course you want a maximum duty cycle of 90%

So you get;
45lb/hr/0.9 = 50lb/hr

Then you need to multiply that by 8 again to get your pump flow rate

So you get;
50 x 8 = 400L/hr

You could use an intank pump to supply your "big" pump and of course it's requirements will be greatly diminished due to it's low pressure supply to the "Big" pump. For instance the flow rate of a stock pump of 88L/hr @ 40psi will be considerably higher when delivering at almost no pressure to the inlet of the Big pump. What that flow rate is, would need to be looked at on a pump data sheet or tested.
You could also make a custom drop in unit to fit a big pump in the tank. That way you could make your own large diameter supply tube and exit because, of course, the stock tube will not be enough. This will also make the Big pump last longer because it will get cooled by the fuel it's immersed in.
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:34 am 
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Yep 55 / 65 Lb injectors.. Walbro 255 intank to supply surge tank with A1000 ..
-8 to feed each side fuel rail and -6 return..
A fuel pump controler won't hurt if you want to drive it on the street to prevent fuel over heating...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:44 am 
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XR9UTE wrote:
Ok, we'll assume 750hp.

To start we will work out your injector size needed.

Injector size(Lb/hr) = HP x BSFC(Brake Specific Fuel Consumption)/Number of cyls
Assuming your engine with a turbo is more efficient than stock...usually the case when modified. You could see BSFC under 0.5. Say 0.48?

So you get;
(750 x 0.48)/8
360/8 = 45lb/hr

Then of course you want a maximum duty cycle of 90%

So you get;
45lb/hr/0.9 = 50lb/hr

Then you need to multiply that by 8 again to get your pump flow rate

So you get;
50 x 8 = 400L/hr

You could use an intank pump to supply your "big" pump and of course it's requirements will be greatly diminished due to it's low pressure supply to the "Big" pump. For instance the flow rate of a stock pump of 88L/hr @ 40psi will be considerably higher when delivering at almost no pressure to the inlet of the Big pump. What that flow rate is, would need to be looked at on a pump data sheet or tested.
You could also make a custom drop in unit to fit a big pump in the tank. That way you could make your own large diameter supply tube and exit because, of course, the stock tube will not be enough. This will also make the Big pump last longer because it will get cooled by the fuel it's immersed in.


This is forced induction so BSFC will be higher, and fuel rail pressure will also need to be higher to maintain the same pressure accross the injector which in turn reduces fuel pump delivery volume/mass.

I believe your injectors will actually need to be about 70lb/hr, and the fuel pump capacity calculated to include maximum boost, hence maximum fuel rail pressure.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:45 am 
Getting Side Ways
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XR9UTE wrote:
Ok, we'll assume 750hp.

To start we will work out your injector size needed.

Injector size(Lb/hr) = HP x BSFC(Brake Specific Fuel Consumption)/Number of cyls
Assuming your engine with a turbo is more efficient than stock...usually the case when modified. You could see BSFC under 0.5. Say 0.48?

So you get;
(750 x 0.48)/8
360/8 = 45lb/hr

Then of course you want a maximum duty cycle of 90%

So you get;
45lb/hr/0.9 = 50lb/hr

Then you need to multiply that by 8 again to get your pump flow rate

So you get;
50 x 8 = 400L/hr

You could use an intank pump to supply your "big" pump and of course it's requirements will be greatly diminished due to it's low pressure supply to the "Big" pump. For instance the flow rate of a stock pump of 88L/hr @ 40psi will be considerably higher when delivering at almost no pressure to the inlet of the Big pump. What that flow rate is, would need to be looked at on a pump data sheet or tested.
You could also make a custom drop in unit to fit a big pump in the tank. That way you could make your own large diameter supply tube and exit because, of course, the stock tube will not be enough. This will also make the Big pump last longer because it will get cooled by the fuel it's immersed in.


This is forced induction so BSFC will be higher, and fuel rail pressure will also need to be higher to maintain the same pressure accross the injector which in turn reduces fuel pump delivery volume/mass.

I believe your injectors will actually need to be about 70lb/hr, and the fuel pump capacity calculated to include maximum boost, hence maximum fuel rail pressure.

 

_________________

XA Faimont 351C, AU2 XR8 Manual 5.0, DA LTD 5.0, Mk1 Capri 5.0, 1995 Mustang 5.0, EF2 XR8 Manual, EF2 Fairmont Ghia 5.0, AU3 XR8 Auto, AU2 XR8 Auto, AU2 XR8 Manual Ute, TE Cortina 5.0 Manual, DU LTD 5.0 soon to be manual

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:00 am 
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my injectors are 65~69lb/hr so they may or may not be suitable. XR9UTE, you multiplied a lb/hr by no. of cylinders and got answer in L. Is it meant to be 400lb/hr? Cps 400L/hr is alot of fuel? So you think i can make up a housing to drop in my tank with the A1000 on it? And is -8 line reccomended to my fuel rails? I was estimating the BSFC to be around 0.5
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Quite often Turbo applications have an drop in BSFC(below .5) due to their efficiency. Generally the opposite is true with supercharging, with centrifugals being a little more so than PD types.
Sorry eboost yes I missed a bit out...400Lb/hr = 251L/hr which needs to be able to be supplied at the fuel pressure plus the boost pressure as xafalcon says. Say you have 15psi boost plus 40psi fuel pressure. So a single 255L/hr pump probably won't cut it because they are rated usually at 40psi and will probably drop close to 200L/hr at 55psi. Does this A1000 have a map?
65 to 69lb per hour will keep you safe eboost. It's a good starting point.
I don't know if you can fit the A1000 in your stock tank, you'd have to measure it. The opening to the tank is certainly large enough for just about any pump...it's the depth that could be the limiting factor? I would certainly try to make an intank setup if it were mine and run big lines all the way.
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:18 am 
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XR9UTE wrote:
Quite often Turbo applications have an drop in BSFC(below .5) due to their efficiency. Generally the opposite is true with supercharging, with centrifugals being a little more so than PD types.
Sorry eboost yes I missed a bit out...400Lb/hr = 251L/hr which needs to be able to be supplied at the fuel pressure plus the boost pressure as xafalcon says. Say you have 15psi boost plus 40psi fuel pressure. So a single 255L/hr pump probably won't cut it because they are rated usually at 40psi and will probably drop close to 200L/hr at 55psi. Does this A1000 have a map?
65 to 69lb per hour will keep you safe eboost. It's a good starting point.
I don't know if you can fit the A1000 in your stock tank, you'd have to measure it. The opening to the tank is certainly large enough for just about any pump...it's the depth that could be the limiting factor? I would certainly try to make an intank setup if it were mine and run big lines all the way.



what if i make an 'L' shaped bracket so the A1000 sits horizontal? ...actually you cant submerge it can you?

So -8 lines to rails then -6 return? Ialso have the aeromotive fuel reg. I think its also an A1000.

cheer for help so far.
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:19 am 
Getting Side Ways
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XR9UTE wrote:
Quite often Turbo applications have an drop in BSFC(below .5) due to their efficiency. Generally the opposite is true with supercharging, with centrifugals being a little more so than PD types.
Sorry eboost yes I missed a bit out...400Lb/hr = 251L/hr which needs to be able to be supplied at the fuel pressure plus the boost pressure as xafalcon says. Say you have 15psi boost plus 40psi fuel pressure. So a single 255L/hr pump probably won't cut it because they are rated usually at 40psi and will probably drop close to 200L/hr at 55psi. Does this A1000 have a map?
65 to 69lb per hour will keep you safe eboost. It's a good starting point.
I don't know if you can fit the A1000 in your stock tank, you'd have to measure it. The opening to the tank is certainly large enough for just about any pump...it's the depth that could be the limiting factor? I would certainly try to make an intank setup if it were mine and run big lines all the way.



what if i make an 'L' shaped bracket so the A1000 sits horizontal? ...actually you cant submerge it can you? Map for A1000, not sure all i know is its good for 1300hp NA, or 1000HP Boosted.

So -8 lines to rails then -6 return? Ialso have the aeromotive fuel reg. I think its also an A1000.

cheer for help so far.
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:00 am 
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A1000 can be submerged, i got the summit catalogue in front of me with the A1000 clearly listed as able to be submerged.
you'd want to submerge it as well, i've seen a video of an XR6T running one, and it was ridiculously f**k loud.
and thats over the video, cant imagine how loud it'd be in person.
they are listed as a 700Lb/hr pump.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:01 pm 
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Isn't -6 bigger than -8? In that case no the return line doesn't need to be as big as the supply.
At 700lb/hr you certainly don't need another pump in the system in fact it's probably a bit too big.
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:13 pm 
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-6 is 3/8", -8 is 1/2".
each 2 steps in in the dash system is an 1/8 of an inch, eg. -2 = 1/8", -4=2/8", -16 = 1" and so on.

yeah A1000 is a big pump, looking around it seems like most people running them have a fuel pump controller to slow them down at low rpm.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel pump talk
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Steady ED wrote:
-6 is 3/8", -8 is 1/2".
each 2 steps in in the dash system is an 1/8 of an inch, eg. -2 = 1/8", -4=2/8", -16 = 1" and so on.

yeah A1000 is a big pump, looking around it seems like most people running them have a fuel pump controller to slow them down at low rpm.


Ah no worries.
Yeah a pump controller is good idea.
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