Fordmods Logo

rear wheel kilowatts to fly wheel kilowatts convertor!!!!! 

 

Page 2 of 4 [ 55 posts ] Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

 
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:09 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Age: 36

Posts: 8655

Joined: 5th Nov 2004

Gallery: 37 images

Ride: V8 EF Futura

Location: Adelaide CBD
SA, Australia

tickford_6 wrote:
i've posted that befor. and i'm going to post it in every thread like this.
because it's the only scientific argument i've seen, and it make more sence then %30 uleh


Dunno about a scientific argument but here's a mathematical one.

Standard Falcon 5.0L, Ford quoted what, about 165kw at the flywheel. Let's take that at face value, we all know there are smoke and mirrors around quote kw figures - but for arguments sake, lets say its within 10% of that figure.

Now, put that standard car on a dyno and you're looking at about 110kw - 120kw at the wheels. This is a fairly average obsevation on most dynos, certainly agrees with all the standard 5.0L e-series ive seen on dynos over the past couple of years.

So let's say we're talking about a 45kw - 50kw difference between quoted flywheel kilowatts and measured rear wheel kilowatts. That's a 27% - 33% reduction from the quoted factory figure for a standard 5.0L e series.

Pretty easy to see where the old "30% rule" comes from.

I agree that when you start talking about high powered motors, this ratio is blown out the door. I mean for a driveline to be absorbing a couple of hundred kilowatts, that energy has to be going somewhere... that kind of energy loss would probably see the car set on fire.... so it doesnt seem phyically possible to lose 30% of an engine's power when the engine is creating, say 600kw.

But for ppl who are doing exhausts, cams, air intake mods etc etc and are looking to add 10kw - 20kw to the engine's power - then the 30% rule (albeit very very very rough) is perfectly acceptable. For minor upgrades to engine power, i dont see the need to make things more complicated than need be.

 

_________________

I promise..... I will never die.

Fordmods Administration Group MINOR PUNKED

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:07 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline

Posts: 6449

Joined: 11th Nov 2004

FPV_GTp wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
FPV_GTp wrote:
hi guys

The amount of crap people post and then there all experts on dynos and drag racing ,engine building and quote mathematical equations and some of the people haven't even driven a car on a chassis dyno nor engine dyno and for that matter run a car down the quarter mile drag strip makes me laugh

Do i enter the argument here na i give up LOL

again i will put anyones car on my dyno and lets see the figures

cheers


well put it to the test. you find an engine dyno, you already have a chassis dyno. i'll donate my engine.

well run it as it is now. then when i built by new one we'll run that too,

we'll see if your much beleived in %30 s**t is right or not..

i will bet my car on it not not having doulbe the driveline loss when it has double the power.

by the %30 rule my bosses 180sx has 160kw drive line loss. and it's power output passes the safe limmit for a stock crank........




am i understanding this correct ( example this is testing totally on chassis dyno at this stage please note this

let me pose this to u , if my engine produces 300 rwkwatts using the 30% method i should have 200 flywheel kwatts YES do we agree here ???


now i make more power out of my motor just say for arguement sake i ( bigger cam , more head work , up the compression ratio and so on ) now have the same engine now producing 600 rwkwatts im using the same car same gearbox same diff same tyres and rims just producing more power

u tell me what the drivetrain losses are now this the new engine in the same test vehicle ? and WHY ?

just think about ur answer carefully ????

i can speak from experince on dynos and race track thats why i laugh some times LOL

cheers



you just said the engine make more power at the wheel then it does at the flywheel....... :roll: :roll: :roll:

and you can't guess or put a % loss on it.. the power needed to turn the mass of the driveline never changes. friction how ever does.. if one part it never changes you can't put a % loss on it.

i've seen you argument to this befor, and at best it's dodgy... because you asume to much...

 

_________________

PERMANENTLY BANNED

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:33 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline

Posts: 6449

Joined: 11th Nov 2004

kenny wrote:
hey, tickford 6
have you taken wheelspin & gear changes into consideration?
that can cost 1/2 second


that was exactly my point. you can't use 1/4 mile times a judge of power

 

_________________

PERMANENTLY BANNED

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:34 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline

Posts: 1656

Joined: 22nd Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

ok

i give up LOL

cheers

 

_________________

FS [VIC]: WorkShop CleanOut - Assorted Parts Some New & Chassis Dyno http://www.fordmods.com/ford-parts-for-sale-f17/fs-workshop-cleanout-assorted-parts-some-new-chassis-dyno-t123623.html

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:01 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 596

Joined: 6th Nov 2004

Gallery: 11 images

Ride: BA mkII XR8

Location: NEWCASTLE
NSW, Australia

FPV_GTp wrote:
ok

i give up LOL

cheers

Still ,,,, how can you judge how much volumetric efficiency the engine has, due to better flowing portwork ,cam lift- duration, max rpm available,
I feel that there is no formula to accuratly measure HP/KW exept in real time driving conditions- A G force measuring device, this gives you real power figures that the vehicle can & does use, taking into account wind resistance the power figures may be lower than a chassis dyno but it is real usable power.

 

_________________

Image
IF YOU HAVE IT UNDER CONTROL
YOU SIMPLY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH POWER!!!
Detroit 8V71 for sale, taking offers

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:46 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline

Posts: 6449

Joined: 11th Nov 2004

FPV_GTp wrote:
ok

i give up LOL

cheers



at least we wont have to read you dribble on about it

 

_________________

PERMANENTLY BANNED

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:27 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline

Posts: 1656

Joined: 22nd Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

tickford_6 wrote:
FPV_GTp wrote:
ok

i give up LOL

cheers



at least we wont have to read you dribble on about it


u make larf , my dribble PMSFL sorry we not all experts like you and on this note since your such a expert what rear wheel kwatts will a BA GT rated at 290 kwatts at the engine ( SO FORD MOTOR COMPANY QUOTE ) will produces on a dyno dynamics chassis dyno and when u have work this out please give me the % differences ????

and remember " i've seen you argument to this befor, and at best it's dodgy... because you asume to much..." i'm not assuming anything here how u have suggested previuously or has ford motor company got here kwatts wrong also maybe there assuming this figure to


LOL


I'm going to have a great larf on this answer PMSFL :?: :?: :wink: :wink: :wink:


cheers

 

_________________

FS [VIC]: WorkShop CleanOut - Assorted Parts Some New & Chassis Dyno http://www.fordmods.com/ford-parts-for-sale-f17/fs-workshop-cleanout-assorted-parts-some-new-chassis-dyno-t123623.html

Last edited by FPV_GTp on Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:31 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Age: 30

Posts: 561

Joined: 23rd Dec 2005

Ride: XC V8

Location: Easten
SA, Australia

wow some people realy went to some effort for this

 

_________________

1976 XC falcon
182 Clio Sport

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:32 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 596

Joined: 6th Nov 2004

Gallery: 11 images

Ride: BA mkII XR8

Location: NEWCASTLE
NSW, Australia

who realy cares!
whoever passes the finnish line first has the"quicker" car/pass! at the time
but as for the 260kw boss, the RWKW in standard trim is 206rwkw@ 5800rpm
you guys do the math, i'm too drunk! but it looks like about 25-30% less than flywheel kw's

 

_________________

Image
IF YOU HAVE IT UNDER CONTROL
YOU SIMPLY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH POWER!!!
Detroit 8V71 for sale, taking offers

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:37 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 6432

Joined: 5th Nov 2004

Gallery: 6 images

The following is just a theortical question in all its aspects:

Does the driveline always lose about the same percentage no matter how powerful the engine? Or does the driveline percentage of loss increase once the engine output approaches, say, 500kw to 1000kw, i.e: 35%, 40%, 45%, 50% loss through the driveline.

 

_________________

5.6L of carbon footprint.

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:52 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Age: 38

Posts: 504

Joined: 11th Nov 2004

Gallery: 6 images

Ride: EFII Ghia 5Ltr

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

And following on from that, does the same engine always lose the same percentage of power through the driveline? For example, does air or engine temp effect driveline efficiency?? What about if you only apply 50% throttle? Do you lose the same percentage?

 

_________________

Have YOU driven a monster truck lately??

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:38 am 
Stock as a Rock
Offline

Posts: 168

Joined: 5th Jan 2006

Ride: XY Fairmont

Location: Berri
SA, Australia

There is no accurate way to compare rear wheel figures to flywheel IMO. A dyno is a tuning tool, usefull for setting up timing curves and fuel delivery, so that you can get the maximum out of an engine without hurting it. Dyno comps have prompted people to build cars with one thing in mind, peak horsepower. This means bugger all on the street, but heaps at the pub! Average horsepower over the usaeble rev range is more critical than peak horsepower on the street AND on the track.

 

_________________

Real Cars have Chrome Bars

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:15 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline

Posts: 6449

Joined: 11th Nov 2004

FPV_GTp wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
FPV_GTp wrote:
ok

i give up LOL

cheers



at least we wont have to read you dribble on about it


u make larf , my dribble PMSFL sorry we not all experts like you and on this note since your such a expert what rear wheel kwatts will a BA GT rated at 290 kwatts at the engine ( SO FORD MOTOR COMPANY QUOTE ) will produces on a dyno dynamics chassis dyno and when u have work this out please give me the % differences ????

and remember " i've seen you argument to this befor, and at best it's dodgy... because you asume to much..." i'm not assuming anything here how u have suggested previuously or has ford motor company got here kwatts wrong also maybe there assuming this figure to


LOL


I'm going to have a great larf on this answer PMSFL :?: :?: :wink: :wink: :wink:


cheers


you are assuming that every GT rolls of the floor with exatcly 290kw...

they dont, so go pick one. rip the engine out put it on an engine dyno, run it in a controlled atmosphere shed, then put it back in the car put it on a chassis dyno from the same maker and run it in the same conditions..

go do that with a few hundred engines from different cars if you get between %28 and %32 for all of them i will bow down to your god like ability come up a a %loss for drivelines


when something as simple a tyre pressures can change the reading
% LOSSES ARE ALL s**t

 

_________________

PERMANENTLY BANNED

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:37 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline

Posts: 1656

Joined: 22nd Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

tickford_6 wrote:
FPV_GTp wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
FPV_GTp wrote:
ok

i give up LOL

cheers



at least we wont have to read you dribble on about it


u make larf , my dribble PMSFL sorry we not all experts like you and on this note since your such a expert what rear wheel kwatts will a BA GT rated at 290 kwatts at the engine ( SO FORD MOTOR COMPANY QUOTE ) will produces on a dyno dynamics chassis dyno and when u have work this out please give me the % differences ????

and remember " i've seen you argument to this befor, and at best it's dodgy... because you asume to much..." i'm not assuming anything here how u have suggested previuously or has ford motor company got here kwatts wrong also maybe there assuming this figure to


LOL


I'm going to have a great larf on this answer PMSFL :?: :?: :wink: :wink: :wink:


cheers


you are assuming that every GT rolls of the floor with exatcly 290kw...

they dont, so go pick one. rip the engine out put it on an engine dyno, run it in a controlled atmosphere shed, then put it back in the car put it on a chassis dyno from the same maker and run it in the same conditions..

go do that with a few hundred engines from different cars if you get between %28 and %32 for all of them i will bow down to your god like ability come up a a %loss for drivelines


when something as simple a tyre pressures can change the reading
% LOSSES ARE ALL s**t



LOL

again im assuming ford motor company has quoted 290kwatts ok ( i'm merely quoting Ford )

my test is complete

i could type more here i will leave it at that

and remember guys i haven't said its gospel that its 30% drive tran losses

Someone asked the question how to convert tyre horse power to flywheel horse power , it is a guideline maybe not a exact guideline other dyno makes quote different losses so who do we believe ???

Tickford again u said im assuming the kwatts of a ba_gt i'm merely quoting from a known figure which i would have to say ford is a reputable company and wouldn't over quote nor under quote there horse power figures. so in this case we have a baseline to work with and make a calculation of some sort

But judging from all the cars that i have run on the dyno and known factory engine horsepower readings i can make a educated calculation on the drivetrian losses from one car to another and it always comes up to approximately 30% on a dyno dynamics chassis dyno.

as far as testing 100 engines on a engine dyno and then doing back to back tests on a chassis dyno i would undertake such a exercise cause the motor companies supply that information

So i will have my engine dyno running soon and a controlled dyno room , which i will do back to back tests on my EA falcon and compare engine dyno and chassis dyno results and the at the drag strip.

drag strip is a interesting topic , i have seen so many guys thinking cause there car produces 500Bhp there going to run 11 seconds , it probably is capable of it depending on a lot of variables

it takes a lot of time just making the right adjustments at the race track not just engine horse power thats another topic to discuss another day

If one has a know horse power figure and a known weigh you have to exsirt the force on it u can make a mathematical calculation how quick in elapsed time and speed you should be able to run down the quarter mile in a ideal world ???

like i said my car will be the test ginny pig engine dyno , chassis dynos and drag strip

This a open forum for discussion and we can talk civilized or we can scream and carry on, I'm better than you and your better than me.

Tickford i have nothing against you and some of your ideas are fine but lets be open minded as well.

And if you ever get a chance to run a BA_gt on a dyno dynamics dyno let me know the results from flywheel horse power that ford quotes us and your actual chassis dyno results you have measured.

Have a look at bretts XR6 in one of the threads i have posted just from a simple air box and air filter change he gained some extra kwatts so my questions is now and i don't know the answer does ford quote engine dyno figures with or without dyno accessories on or off the engine
cause as far as im concerned that factory air filter and air box is a restriction or a drivetrain losses which of the two ???

i don't claim to know all the answers to everything but insults i will not tolerate

cheers guys

 

_________________

FS [VIC]: WorkShop CleanOut - Assorted Parts Some New & Chassis Dyno http://www.fordmods.com/ford-parts-for-sale-f17/fs-workshop-cleanout-assorted-parts-some-new-chassis-dyno-t123623.html

Top
 Profile  
 
 
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:45 pm 
Getting Side Ways
Offline

Posts: 6449

Joined: 11th Nov 2004

here you go again assuming that every BOSS290s leave the floor with exactly 290kw.. news budy they don't. production tolerences ever heard of them????


as far as bretts car, you know as well i do that dynos can be fudged to produce just about any result you want it to. you spent days leading up to it going on about power losses and asking people guess, then you come out and "well %30 is 124rwkw," supries supries what do we get 124rwkw, dynos can be made to poduce numbers, any numbers regardless of actual power

 

_________________

PERMANENTLY BANNED

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:
Sort by  
 Page 2 of 4  [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

 

 

It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:29 pm All times are UTC + 11 hours

 

 

(c)2014 Total Web Solutions Australia - Australian Web Hosting and Domain Names