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Thoughts on disabling EGR 

 

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 Post subject: Thoughts on disabling EGR
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:49 pm 
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Well its a common question in these parts. Personally it doesnt bother me as i have no 'beef' with EGR... but nonetheless the question often comes up.

It seems the main problem with unplugging EGR is that EEC still leans out the fuel mixture and adds timing when EGR is operational. If the inert gasses are not present then reasonable to expect mixtures to be too lean.

So what if one simply disconnected and plugged the vacuum line which enables the mechanical opening of the valve.... theory suggests if the EGR position sensor doesnt see EGR opening then EEC will not lean the mixtures out/advance the timing.... hence eliminating EGR without EEC throwing incorrect fuel/spark at the engine.

If you can handle the EGR fault codes everytime you run a diagnostic... this would just about do the trick wouldnt it?

BTW does anyone know how the vehicle 'actuates' the vac going to the EGR valve? Is this a part of the loom of heater vent control vac lines?

(edited because i cant spell)

 

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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:35 pm 
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Is this the reason that you want pics of the vac lines. I like your thoughts Mr 4.9. what needs to be detirmened is wheather the EEC sees the actauation of the egr, if it does then you need to look elsewhere to beat this. I am not sure where to look though. will give it some thought
Brett

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:04 am 
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I curious as to know the answer to this as well, as my AFR's have no heat riser built in them for the EGR to function at all :?

Am I leaning out :!:

Does'nt the ECU redo the fuel maps to corect any incorrect mixture :?:

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:57 am 
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FPV56L wrote:
Is this the reason that you want pics of the vac lines. I like your thoughts Mr 4.9. what needs to be detirmened is wheather the EEC sees the actauation of the egr, if it does then you need to look elsewhere to beat this. I am not sure where to look though. will give it some thought
Brett


Hey brett... nah this is a different thought than the pic request... they kinda reminded me of each other tho, lol.

Yeah as I understand it, EEC has an output to the EGR (i.e. open the EGR valve) and also a feedback from it (i.e. EGR position sensor). I'm just wondering.... if you disable the mechanical function of EGR (i.e. disconnect and plug vac line)... if EGR position tells EEC the valve aint opening... if it will simply keep the non-EGR fuel/spark maps and simply throw a code saying the EGR isnt opening.

Regarding feedback loop from HEGO... I assume EEC can maintain a stoich afr average but I dont think it can "learn" anything about spark mapping... so if it thinks EGR is open then it will adjust advance to suit... and maybe this is where people have problems with detonation?

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:00 am 
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What i don't understand is that EGR is disabled at WOT, so i would think that detonation would be more present at WOT, but it doesn't seem to need it at WOT..

I would love to cool my intake a bit by removing the EGR.. It gets too hot to touch these days..

Also, is it normal for an EL V8 to hit the R in normal and have the thermos come on after about 1-3 mins of idling in traffic? Or do i have a stuffed radiator?

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Yagz
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:10 am 
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Why do you want to kick the EGR?

EGR has had a lot of bad raps. Most people think it sucks power and that getting rid of it gives you more RWKW and that's complete bolony.

EGR also gives you better economy. As long as it's working properly there should be no reason to get rid of it. You'll notice no difference in power and get worse economy.

Also, a hot intake really makes bugger all difference to the temp of the air going into the engine @ WOT.

If you're sucking 300CFM each air molecule is in the intake for about 0.005 seconds max. So, if the temp difference b/n outside air and manifold temp is 60 degrees centigrade, the air entering the cylinder had gone up a whoping 0.01 degrees centigrade from the time it spent in the intake. At cruising speeds, when the engine is sucking in less air and the air is moving slower, the air heats up more. But look at it this way: you're cruising along @ 100kmh. The engine needs to produce 30kw to maintain that speed. The engine can easily do this @ part throttle. By reducing the intake temp, all that changes is that you use less throttle, and this will actually make your economy worse and make icing far more possible.

Also, it's the physical connection between the manifold and the heads that heat up the manifold, not the EGR.
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:23 am 
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Yagz wrote:
Also, is it normal for an EL V8 to hit the R in normal and have the thermos come on after about 1-3 mins of idling in traffic? Or do i have a stuffed radiator?

Cheers,
Yagz


Sounds a bit warm, a bit quick for my liking Yagz. I just had radiator replaced and in the 15 minute drive to work she doesnt go past L, even sitting in traffic for 1hr on a 35deg day wont see it most past M-A.

If it's original radiator id say she's shagged. Can get standard replacement on ebay for $190 delivered....

Unclewoja... as noted in original post, im not looking to delete my EGR.... its just a common question and thought was worthy of technical discussion :)

My own opinion is that whilst it increases AIR temp going into engine, the inert gasses reduce the COMBUSTION temps.... which is the more critical factor IMO.

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:50 am 
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As unclewoja said, there is no reason to remove the EGR IMO, I think it does more good than bad. The EGR itself does not have an affect on fuel maps, but it does advance the timing a little while the EGR is opperating to take advantage of the cooler combustion temps. This timing advance (which doesn't seem to stop if the EGR is disconnected) along with the higher combustion temps are the reason some people get detonation after removing the EGR.

Yagz wrote:
What i don't understand is that EGR is disabled at WOT, so i would think that detonation would be more present at WOT, but it doesn't seem to need it at WOT..

I would love to cool my intake a bit by removing the EGR.. It gets too hot to touch these days..

Also, is it normal for an EL V8 to hit the R in normal and have the thermos come on after about 1-3 mins of idling in traffic? Or do i have a stuffed radiator?

Cheers,
Yagz


Yes the EGR is disabled at WOT but the EGR timing advance is also stopped and the standard WOT timing maps are tuned for the lack of EGR, so it should not ping.

Removing the EGR won't really cool your intake unless you block off the passages in the head and run a phenolic heat spacer between the upper and lower intake.
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:23 pm 
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So are phenolic spacers a waste of time/money ?

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:33 pm 
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Waggin wrote:
So are phenolic spacers a waste of time/money ?


I dont run one so cant speak from experience. From what i've read, they reduce intake temps signifcantly. Some of the mustang guys use em just to get clearance for vac system.

Also increased runner length will move the RPM range down a bit... personally i wouldnt think that was desirable on a dirty-ho, fairly long runners already... that, and you'd have to buy a different one when you got a decent intake.

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:37 pm 
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I'm planning on getting the trickflow 3/8" spacer kit (which includes new bolts) for the Cobra Intake since the Cobra intake doesnt come with bolts, and my HO bolts wont do the job.

If the big benifit is reducing intake temps, then how does it all fit in with unclewoja's comments on intake temps not being affected by manifold temp?

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:49 pm 
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The phenolic spacers act two ways, firstly by increasing runner length which increases low range power, and secondly they do insulate the upper intake from the rest of the engine. This insulating really doesn't do much unless you disable the EGR and coolant lines to the upper.

Even with a cooler upper I really don't think its a huge deal because the air isn't in the upper for that long (especially at full throttle) and secondly because on a NA engine 20 degrees air intake temp increase is roughly equal to 1% decrease in power (around 1-2kw on a normal falcon). Obviosly this is still a decrease but its not huge.
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:01 am 
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So would a 1" spacer be better? they're only twice the price :D

Will the cobra manifold clear the hood (been reading too many US forums!) with the 1" spacer?

 

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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:11 am 
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EDXR8 wrote:
Even with a cooler upper I really don't think its a huge deal because the air isn't in the upper for that long (especially at full throttle) and secondly because on a NA engine 20 degrees air intake temp increase is roughly equal to 1% decrease in power (around 1-2kw on a normal falcon). Obviosly this is still a decrease but its not huge.

One of the test done in the SADesign book "5.0 Ford dyno tests" was putting a bag of ice on the upper intake manifold which netted 10hp nearly across the whole rev range. You could have cooked an egg on my upper intake on the Fairlane after a decent drive - just about burn your hand on it. With the phenolic spacer the upper is significantly cooler than before. Lowering the intake temperature always makes more power.....
Shane

 

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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:05 am 
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The EGR valve is controlled by a PWM signal from the ECU operating on an electrically controller vacuum valve mounted on the firewall. The vacuum source is from one of the vacuum connectors on the inlet plenum.

On startup, the ECU sets the PWM level on the EGR actuator, then reads the EGR position sensor to make sure that the EGR valve has moved. If not, then error code 33 appears in the ECU's log.

If you ditch the EGR system, then be prepared to have the motor lean out at cruise, and then burn valves, etc ..... :shock:

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