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want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details 

 

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 Post subject: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Hi Guys and Girls (if any).

new to this forum and Ford V8 but not new to turbocharging.

Ive recently bough a 1967 Mustang as my new weekend toy.

have owned a turbo car since 1998 and still do.....

been doing research on this now for a while but still have few blanks that need to filled.

about the mustang:

i got the original 289 that was delivered in the boot of the car. looks in sorry state.
in the front had a very clean and good runing 302 with 2brl carb (yuk)
so thats what i have to play with.

now what i want is:

EFI and forced induction in my muzzy with bit of power.

initialy wanted to install the boss260 or 290 but their size is not friendly to tightish mustang engine bay.

so now these are the options.

option 1:
buy a complete au3 Xr8 220kw engine + gbox etc complete kit with wiring etc......
Add 2x T3 or T4 turbos (rated to 500hp each) on custom manifold and custom intake.

question i have:

1. what i can push the stock internal engine before it ends up as a boat anchor. ie PSI and HP.

2. what internal changes are needed to make the 220kw stronger for higher boost ie cams conrods crank etc....

3. how hard is it to retune the factory ecu for force induction or is it simpler to go aftermarket ecu.


4. also thinking of stroker kit to 347 for above as well..

fabricating and installing all this is not a problem for me...
same goes for wiring and reprograming ecu.
need to know what stuff need to be fitted and what is "REALY" needed and whats a bonus. ive seen ppl spend big $$$ on internal parts and than got nothing on add ons. i want more of a balance.

im not interested in too big numbers as the car is fairly light at some 1250+kg
would be nice to get around 250+ rwkw .
than again if the setup can chuck 400 easily im not complaining :lol:

i do want turbos on this car as it will be more unique than the array of superchargers and twin 4bbl carbies out there.

OPTION2 :

do i rebuild one of the old blocks and have all custom made plus the extras (this at initial glance is more expensive option as au3 xr8 has allready Rola cams and better flowing heads)

thanks in advance for any help...

PS this was in different section but i thought later it probably suit this section better looking at the questions.

Last edited by 67TTCoupe on Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 dos and donts ?
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:43 pm 
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Late model Windsor blocks, such as in AU series V8's are generally accepted as being able to cope with approx 500hp at the flywheel.
If you intend to push past 260 ~ 280rwkw at any stage on a stock block then you will very possibly kiss your stock block goodbye. Perhaps price up an aftermarket block if you intend huge power upgrades in the future.
I would also think that adding turbos would mean going an aftermarket ECU.

 

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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 dos and donts ?
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:52 pm 
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Vic wrote:
Late model Windsor blocks, such as in AU series V8's are generally accepted as being able to cope with approx 500hp at the flywheel.
If you intend to push past 260 ~ 280rwkw at any stage on a stock block then you will very possibly kiss your stock block goodbye. Perhaps price up an aftermarket block if you intend huge power upgrades in the future.
I would also think that adding turbos would mean going an aftermarket ECU.

I'll second Vic on this....

Aftermarket blocks aren't cheap, but neither is horsepower and some reliability. 500 rwkw on an aftermarket block, say 347, or 351W out to 393 approx with a couple of twins....easy. Plenty of options, none of which are cheap. Would love to give you a hand if distance wasnt a prob...lol

Hope it comes to fruition...

Cheers

8-) Daz 8-)

 

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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:34 am 
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Find urself a low kms EF/EL/AU 5.0L and twin or single turbo that and use it as a base 2 muck around with to get it all setup, then once ur ready to spend big dollars as least u have ur exhaust manifolds, wastegate/s, blow off valve, turbo/s and intake all setup ready to go.

Just make sure once everything is mocked up the if u choose 2 go bigger turbo's down the track that ur setup can grow with u eg, enough space for bigger turbo/s and flage is the same and just have to redo dump pipe.

If you have a really good tune u will have 300rwkw and keep revs under 6000rpm with standard block.

If you can go 351 windsor that will be base as it can take much more in standard form but see if u can engineer with a 351 cube and if not just go 302.

 

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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:27 am 
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Some T3's will do fine or single T70 sized Masterpower, T04Z etc etc..
Imo an auto is much easier and nicer to drive..
Even though I have a TKO manual..
Std cam will do fine with 1.72 rockers..
Aftermaket heads seal better due to better thicker deck..
If you get the Lightning MAF or specific blower maf from pro-m or whatever they are called
now with 42 Lb injectors, Walbro / Bosch intank pump your nearly there..
Why a nr std cam helps?? .. It keeps your power band in low rpm as power isn't going to be your concern!! It will be limiting the power.. I run 280 rwkw on std T5 and block for around 5 years. I suggest fitting head studs and lower comp between 8.5 and 8.8 and your EEC will cope very well..
Have you thought of a Bara 6T ??

 

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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:28 am 
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EBXR8380

Have you noticed that alot of guys in the US run the Master power T70 with 0.68 rear??? i would of thought it would come on boost to early???

I would of thought a BW Airwerks S366 with 0.91 comp wheel would come on boost about 2600-2800 rpm with say a C4 or AOD with 3300-3500 rpm converter with 3.50 diff gears.

67TTCoupe

If you would like to purchase a Master power turbo i can direct you to a guy ive used before in NZ and a mate of mine recelt bought a T76 off him with no problems and quick delivery.

 

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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:56 am 
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thanks guys for the replies.

got me thinking a bit more with your ideas.

yeah if 351W block is better base to start with i can do that. no cubes issue can go upto 429 :lol:

is this possible:

get a 351 block transfer the gt40 heads and intake manifold from later 302. decomp it to 8.8 or lower (thicker head gasket or dished pistons)
water pump etc... from the newer type engine and run the modifed EEC (i dont like the aftermarket stuff unless i REALY have to use it ) yes makes power but when not racing they pigs to drive. I still want smooth driving when foot is not burried to the firewal

how abou the 351 crank and conrods cams etc... will they be OK to use or need something stronger or different grind.

again im not after a 1200hp monster but ar least 500-600hp more if it can handle it but dont wan to run it to its limits.

the car will be fairly quick even with lightly modded late model 302W so not after a to beat records well (want to make sure it cleans my mates 55 chev with twin carbied 400 so Ford vs Chev here :lol: cant get that fat chev infront of me)

but all in all its a cruise show off car and not a drag racer. (not saying it won't visit the strip im sure she will :twisted: but it will be just to see what she can do)

i did hear about 6000rpm limit on 302 which prob wont be a problem as i make it cut off at that rpm... higher rpm be nice but not necesary.

i would like to use my 2 turbos i allready have T3 rated to 500hp cant remember the specs of top of my head but they should do the trick. can swap them for bigger T4 but dont see the point... for getting bigger hp as i have trouble putting it down even with 500+ HP

gearbox would like to use manual as the car is originaly manual and personal prefferance. diff and other bits are not an issue.. diff ratio etc can be changed easy.

im just looking at what bits and which way to go in regards to engine and internal components.
Also with EEC... how programmable are they and what is required too get them reflashed.

ie is it ok to use ef el or better to go for AU ecu.

did think of Barra 6 turbo be lot cheaper option with about same or even more power but i allready have a 200+rwkw 6cyl turbo twin cam in my other car that weighs only 1150kg. also have a 4cyl turbo car too so kinda want a v8 twin turbo now to complete the range :D

my next mustang project will be going the barra 6 path but thats another story for years to come.
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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:31 pm 
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Some inspiration, i know its worked for me :D

1073hp with stock 351 windsor block with videos
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...topic=104843.0

Mustang with S400 and video links to above video. Makes more power with S400 than T76.
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...?topic=97923.0

Drag Radial mustang with 393ci and DIY S400
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...topic=114682.0

-The intake manifold carnt be used so u will need to buy a new one

- I think u can use those heads maybe just give them a clean up sort of porting and just buy some lower comp pistons eg SRP pistons and can use standard rods and crank but a good idea if u buy H beam rods as itdosent cost much more if u strengthen the rods plus bolts.

-Dont know about water pump

- For 500-600 hp stabndard cams will do the job but if u want add a cam if ur looking for a lumpy cam which id probably do mainly for sound as hp is no issue.

-Use AU ecu but ive read on another forum people adapting a BA/BF ecu to older windsor like 302/351 and apparently FG ecu can be as well???

You can probably tell ive looked into this which i have and just waiting for the right EF/EL XR8 to pop up so i can do a single turbo conversion :D

Im just a tad confussed about turbo i would use as u can see in the above post

 

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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:11 pm 
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cheers mickyyyy

cant check the vid at work bloody port is blocked. ill check it later.

as for intake manifold i was going to use lower half of the 302W and make my own custom front facing plenum.

also i want to use some sort of cam angle sensor instead of distributor mainly preffer individual coil packs and need extra room around that area for my intake plenum and TB. makes plumbing the turbos simpler and lot neater.

im asuming the later AU3 has a crank angle sensor instead of the ditributor from the earlier models.

or should i just forget about the HP race and be happy to what the 302W with twins pumps out safely which ive realised be around 500hp on stock block and not passing the 6000rpm limit.

500hp thats around 370kw still aint shabby. hopefully be enough to keep its nose infront of the 55 chev.

makes it simpler and easier and cheaper for me to do... be nice to have 600+ hp but the expense gets bit out of hand.

regarding AU ECU and reflashing etc.... any links to gadgets or DIY reflash.
i guess i should try and source an AU service manual for some details.

or dont seem to find a list on the net difference between the au3 220kw vs the EF EL xr8 and which one is better and easier starting point for turbo application. that be nice.

why im stuck on au3 is cause i can get one with sub 50K km for around 2.5K complete with wiring. its a good motor to start with. if it blows 2-3yrs down the track no big deal. by that time i prob build a 351 block to take its place

again cheers for ideas and keep them comming
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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:13 am 
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The weak link is the block .. The rotating assembly can take heaps..
Keep rpm under 6000 rpm and use turbo's that run out of puff or start chocking around
max rpm.. You have to get used to changing gears early to use the torque of the engine rather than rpm.. The Ford E303 cam seems ideal .. So any cam with LSA over 112 / 110 centre line will work well.. Keep the compression and run lower boost to keep good throttle response..
9 to1 and 8Lb should be very quick and reliable given good tune...
Set up like that.. Would be be very quick and hardly need to rev over 3500 rpm unless you wanted to??
I prefer aftermarket ECU simply because it "reads boost" through MAP...
Finding a trusty, good tuner is the issue though..
Yes latter model EEC's can read boost...

 

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Project 1UZ-EF has started.. S475 Turbo 4.0 V8 Mustang Celica.....

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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:10 pm 
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thanks guys for replies.

still debating do i build a block or use the AU3 engine. the power that will output at low psi is fine for intended puprose but we all know that little bit extra would be always nice down the track.

My friend whos is a dyno tuner (kinda retired) talked me into getting a motec and found one at a realy good price. so that takes care of the ecu issues.

now just got to take the stuff onboard and check some prices and than compare which way is mpore economical way of doing it.
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 Post subject: Re: want to Twin turbo a AU3 XR8 302W finer details
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Check my 351W into XE post for what fits and how to use the DIS gear on it.
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