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Windsor vs Cleveland 

 

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Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:23 am 
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clevo = real V8
windsor = close 2nd

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:31 pm 
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Hey guys did you know that all clevo's built after 1972 were de-tuned from the factory?
I bet if you get one of those (cheapy) 3 way adjustable timing chain sets & advance the timing by 4 degrees, you will see an improvement of up to 30hp at the wheels. This was fords way of meeting the smog regulations without making new parts, but I haven't seen one 351 crank that was ground even close to "true" TDC with most being 8-15 degrees retarded (divide by 2 for cam timing)
as for roller cams in clevo's, don't bother unless you are looking for every last bit of power.
The cheapest power fix is simply have the cam timing in the right place & a bottom end ballance, this generally will produce 1hp for every inch of displacement, show me a windsor that can do that

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:12 pm 
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kenny wrote:
Hey guys did you know that all clevo's built after 1972 were de-tuned from the factory?
I bet if you get one of those (cheapy) 3 way adjustable timing chain sets & advance the timing by 4 degrees, you will see an improvement of up to 30hp at the wheels. This was fords way of meeting the smog regulations without making new parts, but I haven't seen one 351 crank that was ground even close to "true" TDC with most being 8-15 degrees retarded (divide by 2 for cam timing)
as for roller cams in clevo's, don't bother unless you are looking for every last bit of power.
The cheapest power fix is simply have the cam timing in the right place & a bottom end ballance, this generally will produce 1hp for every inch of displacement, show me a windsor that can do that


So whats the code for the year of the donk???

vik...or how do ya tell...

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:28 pm 
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Yea but roller cams don't have the hassle of bedding in etc ?? Much less chance of whipping out a cam lobe or two...

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:37 pm 
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The 351W has bigger main bearings, 3", verses 351C , 2 3/4". The clev having a stronger block? maybe, but if you bore them to 0.040", you risk ballooning the bores. Max oversize for performance & longevity is 0.030".
The best combo would be 351W bottom end with 351C heads, because you can't beat a Clevo head for breathing.

 

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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:37 am 
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cjh wrote:
The 351W has bigger main bearings, 3", verses 351C , 2 3/4". The clev having a stronger block? maybe, but if you bore them to 0.040", you risk ballooning the bores. Max oversize for performance & longevity is 0.030".
The best combo would be 351W bottom end with 351C heads, because you can't beat a Clevo head for breathing.

I wouldn't say "bigger is better" when it comes to bearings, simply because the more total surface area the more oiling it requires, when you look at most if not all high revving engines you will find that the bearings are reduced to chev large journal sizes for this reason (big end's) and I have never seen a crook main in a clevo anyway, most pro stockers used stock, re-ballanced 351 cranks to spin in exess of 10,000 rpm as long as they used smaller big ends

 

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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:32 pm 
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Have a squiz at this blokes blog, his name is Dave Williams.
Lots of Ford engine builds to look at.
http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/index.htm

Go the Mighty Clevo!

 

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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:55 pm 
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kenny wrote:
this generally will produce 1hp for every inch of displacement, show me a windsor that can do that


You really are delusional if you think that......

Have a look at what the Stateside boys are doing with their 5 oh engines....

And to just bring up a fact, these so called "cleveland heads" were originally designed for the 302 Windsor, yes, thats right, the Boss engine. Ever wondered why the bore spacings were the same between cleveland and windsor?
The original canted valve head was cast in Ontario, at the windsor plant.....
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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:02 pm 
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So does that mean I can bolt some Clevo heads on the XR8 for some more magic??
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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:36 pm 
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347stroker wrote:
kenny wrote:
this generally will produce 1hp for every inch of displacement, show me a windsor that can do that


You really are delusional if you think that......

Have a look at what the Stateside boys are doing with their 5 oh engines....

And to just bring up a fact, these so called "cleveland heads" were originally designed for the 302 Windsor, yes, thats right, the Boss engine. Ever wondered why the bore spacings were the same between cleveland and windsor?
The original canted valve head was cast in Ontario, at the windsor plant.....


That is not quite correct. The BOSS motor used heads that were developed for the Cleveland, but the BOSS was built in '69 and the Cleveland was built in '70. So yes the heads were first used on the Windsor but is was still a Cleveland head. It may well have been cast in Ontario, as that was where the Ford expertise was based.

As for the bore spacing, it is what it is because thats what the Ford small blocks use. The bolt patterns are the same, the engine mounts are the same. Again all because both types are Ford small blocks.

Most say Windsors are better because thats all the yanks use. The 351C was only used in US cars from '70 to 74'. Here in Aus we are graced with more choice of years and better blocks in the cleveland range. Our castings, like the mexicans, have more nickle content and are therefore stronger. The original US blocks were not that fantastic and prone to cracks. This is where most of the cleveland urban legends sprout from.

I really don't see why you people bother trying to prove which is better. They both have good and bad points. This is what makes us all individuals, we all like different things. I personally have 2 Windsors (both EFI 5.0s) and two Clevelands (one 302 and one 351). I wont tell you about the V6 I own, except to say it is not a Holdung CommonWhore.

In the end they are both our beloved Ford Small Blocks, just be happy with that and celebrate it.

 

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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:09 pm 
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raiki wrote:
347stroker wrote:
kenny wrote:
this generally will produce 1hp for every inch of displacement, show me a windsor that can do that


You really are delusional if you think that......

Have a look at what the Stateside boys are doing with their 5 oh engines....

And to just bring up a fact, these so called "cleveland heads" were originally designed for the 302 Windsor, yes, thats right, the Boss engine. Ever wondered why the bore spacings were the same between cleveland and windsor?
The original canted valve head was cast in Ontario, at the windsor plant.....


That is not quite correct. The BOSS motor used heads that were developed for the Cleveland, but the BOSS was built in '69 and the Cleveland was built in '70. So yes the heads were first used on the Windsor but is was still a Cleveland head. It may well have been cast in Ontario, as that was where the Ford expertise was based.

As for the bore spacing, it is what it is because thats what the Ford small blocks use. The bolt patterns are the same, the engine mounts are the same. Again all because both types are Ford small blocks.


The heads were originally cast for the Windsor, in the Windsor Ontario plant, and if I remember correctly, the early castings were tunnel port.
They were designed for the 302 windsor/Boss. The fact they ended up on the Cleveland was an afterthought actually. The Cleveland was designed around the heads, and to say the bore spacings are just what Ford small blocks are is.....welll, like saying the FE and 385 series lima engines have the same....Bellhousing patterns are the same.....
I own in excess of 10 Ford V8's from 12 sec Clevos to big and little stroker windsors, to mod motors, and have no real preference to any really. Just love em all for what they are.
Just get sick of the Clevo camp stating how good they are.
Just for a myth buster too.....Mexican blocks are all myth....nothing better about them at all....even the Ford Racing short track book backs this fact up.
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:27 pm 
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im a Clevo man, having ressurected one, a 302 Clevo with some light mods (cant wait to get it run in :twisted: )
i have taken it for a quick spin around the block and even with this 6cyl "straw" as its exhaust and pulling from top gear (to lazy to fit the kick down rod yet) it will still break traction at 40(ish)kph.

but if i was going for just a cruiser, say like a 69 convertible mustang *drool* id go the EFI Windsor with a 4 speed auto and with a growling luky exhaust :twisted:

 

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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:05 pm 
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Ahhh yes the tunnel port heads , that were designed for the secret project, unfortunatly they never made it on the clevo, and yes there is a bit of clevo vs windsor going on, but f**k it clevo's are better!

 

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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:20 am 
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What's better than hyd. roller cammed EFI windsor?
A Hyd. roller cammed EFI Cleveland!
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:28 pm 
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What's the rev ceilling of a hydraulic roller cammed motor compared to a hydraulic flat tappet cammed motor? Provided that you use suitable valve springs.
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