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toploader vs. borg warner single rail 

 

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 Post subject: toploader vs. borg warner single rail
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:11 am 
Oompa Loompa
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Hi, I'm currently in the market for a 4 speed manual gearbox for my stock 302 XC. I am just wondering what are the pros and cons of the toploader and borg warner single rail gearbox. From my research, the toploader is more sought after, is stronger and was used in earlier falcons, that's where my knowledge ends. What are the differences between the two other than superficially? Is it worth buying a toploader for the extra money involved? Keep in mind, that I do intend later on down the track on doing some mild performance work to the 302, the single rail should be more than strong enough for a mild 302 right? I don't want to abuse the engine or driveline either.
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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:04 am 
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If your going to put some HP out in the future i would go for toploader for sure

9 times out of 10 you will need to put a kit throu it cause they have a habit of jamming in gears

But a much stronger box
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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:24 am 
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WTF!!! jamming in gears!! I have never jammed mine in gears and I have done over 300,000 MILES on one of mine Not even draging :shock: :D

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:05 pm 
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Top Loaders locked up in third gear, but that was just on the Group C cars, I bet not many street/drag cars would ever see it happen.
Late XBGT ran single rails, as did XC Cobra etc.
Single rails are often put down as crap, but if you are running 300-350 hp, keep the dollars for something else, and run the single rail.
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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:10 pm 
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ok, thanks. I have no plans at this stage to stroke the engine or do any other serious power modifications, so I think a single rail will do for what I want. If I ever do decide to stroke it then I can always find a toploader later on.
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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:15 pm 
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My brothers cortina has a hot 250Xflow in it backed up by a single rail. This thing was scary to drive but it never had a problem with the gearbox. Clutches and flywheels were another story.......forever breaking 1 of the three?????? 5/16 bolts that hold the clutch onto the flywheel. Became very good at removeing and replacing the clutch and gearbox on that car. When we put it back together we will put the later model flywheel and clutch in it (and perhaps a T5)

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:39 pm 
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My 265 Hemi loved the single rail (was out of a falcon), had it rebuilt and the thing still clunked!

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:48 pm 
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i have a 250 xflow xe ute and the car has had 5 rebuilt single rail and the next time it stuffs up i will be in the market for a top loader

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:53 pm 
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jabinett wrote:
i have a 250 xflow xe ute and the car has had 5 rebuilt single rail and the next time it stuffs up i will be in the market for a top loader


What are you doing to it, I never popped one behind my clevo, and it had grunt. :lol: :roll:
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Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:20 am 
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One thing I will give a toploader over a single rail is syncros, a worn out toploader can still be quickly slammed through the gears, most BW gearboxes in general can't do that when they are healthy.

 

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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:25 pm 
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twr7cx wrote:
My 265 Hemi loved the single rail (was out of a falcon), had it rebuilt and the thing still clunked!



How did you fit a Falcon single rail behind a Val 265??? The spigot is longer on a Val single rail, and the shifter rod is a 3 piece set up with a diversion in it. The Val single rail didn't have an insulator half way up the shifter. Also, the splines are finer on a Val box, but no biggy there, just use a Ford clutch plate, but still the questions remain.......

But I have seen a Val single rail put behind a Ford I6. They cut off half of the spigot on the input shaft.

 

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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:27 pm 
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Macca wrote:
One thing I will give a toploader over a single rail is syncros, a worn out toploader can still be quickly slammed through the gears, most BW gearboxes in general can't do that when they are healthy.


A single rail that is hard to shift either has the wrong viscosity oil in it, or the sychro rings are worn, or need the updated ones to be fitted, or modify the old ones, extra slots to let the oil out for slicker shifts.

 

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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:46 am 
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cjh wrote:
A single rail that is hard to shift either has the wrong viscosity oil in it, or the sychro rings are worn, or need the updated ones to be fitted, or modify the old ones, extra slots to let the oil out for slicker shifts.


How do you tell if the synchros are updated? I'm picking up a single rail on the weekend and I'm going to rebuild it. The guy who's helping me rebuild it said synchros don't always need replacing, just checking, and if ok can be reused. What do you think of this statement? Also, are some rebuild kits inferior to others? What are recommendations on the topic of rebuilding?
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:34 am 
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I have been crunching numbers with tyre profiles, diff ratios and gear ratios. I made this spreadsheet to simplify things. For those new to spreadsheets, when you open it, just enter your tyre specs, gear ratios and speed in km/h (true speed, not speed indicated on speedo) in the inputs section, and it will show your engine rpm in each gear for the given speed and wheel circumference and diameter (including tyre) in the outputs section. Some people may already have similar spreadsheets that have been posted up, but I thought I'd share this in case it could be of use.

 

 

Attachments:
File comment: gear ratio spreadsheet
gear spreadsheet.xls [8 KiB]
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:12 pm 
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kircher wrote:
cjh wrote:
A single rail that is hard to shift either has the wrong viscosity oil in it, or the sychro rings are worn, or need the updated ones to be fitted, or modify the old ones, extra slots to let the oil out for slicker shifts.


How do you tell if the synchros are updated? I'm picking up a single rail on the weekend and I'm going to rebuild it. The guy who's helping me rebuild it said synchros don't always need replacing, just checking, and if ok can be reused. What do you think of this statement? Also, are some rebuild kits inferior to others? What are recommendations on the topic of rebuilding?



Unfortunately, I don't have any pics of the different synchros. The early synchro rings had about 6 grooves, these go across the the smaller grooves ( the smaller grooves go around the synchro ring and act as a brake). The later ones have about 12 to 18 grooves across the rings.
The old trick was to cut more grooves into the rings ( the early rings).
This lets the oil get out of the way of the ring so it could grip the centre of the synchro hub assembly.

To check the rings, look for the worn grooves, as in the tops of these, like the tops of saw teeth, if they are worn, the tops of them will be flattened, also in saying that, look for wear where they contact the centre of the synchro hub, look for grooving/ripple appearence, that is worn.
Also look at the condition of the teeth on the outside of the rings.
The correct viscosity oil is very important, gear oil is too heavy, ATF is OK, but needs changing regularly, about every 10K to 20K, or an engine oil of SAE 20 to SAE 30, this will last about 20K to 30K. But this depends on how harder a time the box is given.

I haven't seen any rebuild kits that come with synchros rings. A good kit will have new energizer springs, and plates for the synchros, the brass end shims for the cluster assembly as well as the needle bearings for it too.

 

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