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madmurf
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Age:44
Posts: 24
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Location: Bunbury WA, Australia
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 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Garth
I cant under stand why you went with the idle control.
My Ford runs so smooth at idle now and starts like a petrol when its been
running for a while.?
You said the gas savings havent changed do you get stuck in traffic up in the sunshine coast or is it all open road driving.?
I have mine fitted to the ford and a patrol which is duel fuel, I suppose its a trifuel now. The ford has been spot on the Patrol has no difference to the L/Per Ks. I am only running one cell and MAF control in the Patrol and suspect the HHO flow rate to be the problem. My next unit will be producing around 1 to 1.5 litres per min this wil be fitted to the Patrol.
I will post results.
Keep up the good work Garth. I used Sikaflex (Boat Glue) on my terminals.
Cheers
Peter |
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garthr
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
Age:46
Posts: 152
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| madmurf wrote: | Hi Garth
I cant under stand why you went with the idle control.
My Ford runs so smooth at idle now and starts like a petrol when its been
running for a while.?
You said the gas savings havent changed do you get stuck in traffic up in the sunshine coast or is it all open road driving.?
I have mine fitted to the ford and a patrol which is duel fuel, I suppose its a trifuel now. The ford has been spot on the Patrol has no difference to the L/Per Ks. I am only running one cell and MAF control in the Patrol and suspect the HHO flow rate to be the problem. My next unit will be producing around 1 to 1.5 litres per min this wil be fitted to the Patrol.
I will post results.
Keep up the good work Garth. I used Sikaflex (Boat Glue) on my terminals.
Cheers
Peter |
Yes i know it seems a bit unusual to have an idle cutoff, but another strategy that i use regularly to save fuel is to kill the motor whenever i am stopped in traffic (e.g. red light that has just changed etc.)
problem is sometimes u need ign on so that indicators etc will work, but u don't want hho on while motor is stopped hence the setup with micro sw on throttle linkage, automatically takes care of it. (saves me having to sw cell off & remembering to turn it back on)
hope that sheds some light,
Garth |
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garthr
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
Age:46
Posts: 152
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Manstra wrote: | Garth,
I have read this forum right through with a lot of interest. I have the sewer pvc and picked up some stainless plates, about ready to start to put one of these together. I noticed in your last video on Youtube that you had the plates with the 2mm arcylic spacers, but it looked like you had bigger spacers in there too. Can you please advise me of :-
1) The complete size of your pvc tube.
2) The dimensions and number of stainless plates
3) the thickness of spacers and material they are made out of
4) the configuration you have used i.e. -nnn+
I have some plans for a PWM if you are interested. I bought the book "Run your car on water" but to initially get up and running I wanted to use your design, as the book one seems quite complex. I can forward you this book if you send me your email address.
Thanks,
Manstra |
G'day,
sorry i didn't get back to u sooner but was planning to pull the cell apart to check some of the dimensions, and do some mods, also take some pictures. (but still haven't done any of that yet). - so i will answer your Qs anyway as best i can.
1) tube is 100mm pvc sewer pipe about 300mm long
2) plates are approx. 65x 180 x 1.2mm 10 of them, 316 stainless.
3) spacers are about 1.8mm thick, not sure exactly what but feels and acts like acrylic, (previously got same result using 2mm "o" rings just placed in each corner) only problem was making sure they stayed put until i got pressure on the plates.
4) setup is +nnnn-
the other so-called spacers u are seeing are not really spacers as such, but just links connecting each set of neutrals to make one extra thick plate, they are welded in place ( another way to explain it is that it is the same system that the smack's booster uses to minimise current leakage through the electrolyte, (current which just bypasses the plates & heats the cell, - bad )
will try to post some photos in next few days that will be easier than trying to explain.
Garth
Last edited by garthr on Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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dougy2005
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Location: griffith NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hi guys. Firstly want to say thanks for all the work you have done, especially Garth. I have spent countless hours reading and started to tinker this weekend. Only then did I realize how many hours go into the build.... it's kinda depressing considering that my first build probably wont be much good.
Heres were I have gone wrong before even starting...
I bought pressure pipe. Bad idea. Managed to find someone who would cut 100mm pressure pipe for me... $40 for 1m (needed less than 20cm in the end because of the large ends) by the time I bought a fixed end, a end that accepts a screw cap and the pvc weld I was up for $80.
Next had to find screw on end caps. Bought 2 cause I figured I was bound to screw one..... discounted at $36 each....
Bought some 16 gauge perforated 304 SS. 10cm x 1m cost about $40. The more I have read I'm thinking that perforated isn't a good idea... and its way more expensive. Also unfortunately it seems being inland that no one keeps 316 in stock so will only sell it by a full sheet... big dollars.
I used a design I saw somewhere... cant find the page now and left the print outs in the garage..... basically threaded SS rod supports the plates and provides power.
I have 5 plates, 8cm x 18cm (only 8cm so they would fit in and out of the narrow opening of the screw cap connector). They are set up as -nnn+. spacings are 3-4mm due to rubber grommets.
I stuck it in a bucket to test it out, even on its side I had to use 4 ltrs of distilled water to cover it. At first almost nothing and virtually no current draw. ( I used running car to power it). I kept chucking in backing soda, tonnes of it... till I was drawing about 6-7amps. Didn't look to exciting... not like some of the videos I have seen online...
Oh well... plumb weld should be dry tomorrow so sometime during the week I will put it together and be able to attempt to measure output!
One things that I read during my searching, was that one guy used copper pipe for the gas output and wrapped it around water pipes in order to heat the HHO before it entered the intake. This guy seemed to be getting very good gains. what do you all think of this? |
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frankieh
Fordmods - Getting Side Ways
Age:36
Posts: 1347
Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Location: Perth WA, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Why would heating it be good? It would then raise the overall intake temp which normally reduces efficiency. |
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madmurf
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Age:44
Posts: 24
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Location: Bunbury WA, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| frankieh wrote: | | Why would heating it be good? It would then raise the overall intake temp which normally reduces efficiency. |
Hi from what I have seen the heating of the intake air advances the timing which improves the burning of the HHO mix and fuel. Does it work?
Dont Know.
I would look at other ideas like Oxygen Sen modifier or MAF/MAP unit.
On a side subject I have just got another 1liter per hundred improvement on the AU LPG ford.
New HHO Generator with more output.
The new one is self filling and requires maintance ever 20,000 ks compared to every 1000Ks |
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Manstra
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Location: Sydney NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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I installed my unit yesterday. I had a 30amp fuse in the realy and after 10 minutes of running, that blew. (It was bubbling well though.. heh heh) I replaced the solution with a weaker mix of rain water and caustic soda, and a 15 amp fuse. It bubbles away and I have only driven my Mazda 6 2003 15 km since the install. It was dark when I installed it (had to use torch light) so i have no idea at the moment what amps I am pulling and I connected it to a vaccuum hose that seems to be running from the airbox into the inlet manifold (trying to avoid MAP sensor and throttle body). I will test amps next weekend and hopefully get some mileage figures.
i don't want to play around too much with fooling the sensors... but if I have to , I have to.. 
Last edited by Manstra on Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Manstra
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Location: Sydney NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Garth,
I have been doing a lot of thinking over the past couple of days. I am having the same problem that you had with the generator sucking back water out of the bubbler. I thought about adding in a one way valve as you did, but I have my gene hooked into a vacuum line. This will mean that instead of the gene working in a vacuum, it will be continuously sucking in air through the airstone. My solution, which I have not yet had time to implement, is to totally fill the generator with electrolite and half fill the bubbler. That way when the vacuum sucks the electrolite, it will flow into the bubbler but still leave a decent airgap so it won't go into the engine. When the engine stops, the gene will suck back out of the bubbler but they should end at the same level that they strated with.
Does this make sense? let me know of your thoughts... |
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garthr
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
Age:46
Posts: 152
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Manstra wrote: | Garth,
I have been doing a lot of thinking over the past couple of days. I am having the same problem that you had with the generator sucking back water out of the bubbler. I thought about adding in a one way valve as you did, but I have my gene hooked into a vacuum line. This will mean that instead of the gene working in a vacuum, it will be continuously sucking in air through the airstone. My solution, which I have not yet had time to implement, is to totally fill the generator with electrolite and half fill the bubbler. That way when the vacuum sucks the electrolite, it will flow into the bubbler but still leave a decent airgap so it won't go into the engine. When the engine stops, the gene will suck back out of the bubbler but they should end at the same level that they strated with.
Does this make sense? let me know of your thoughts... |
There seems to be a lot of argument about whether it is best to connect into vacuum or not, but if you must then why not use the method that the water4gas guys use, that is a adjustable breather on top of cell, (made from an irrigation drip nozzle) with a tube going down to bottom of cell.
This injects an adjustable amount of extra air into cell which bubbles up past elements and helps move the hydroxy bubbles quicker, also means you won't have the problem you have with pullback of bubbler water. |
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madmurf
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Age:44
Posts: 24
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Location: Bunbury WA, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garthr wrote: | | Manstra wrote: | Garth,
I have been doing a lot of thinking over the past couple of days. I am having the same problem that you had with the generator sucking back water out of the bubbler. I thought about adding in a one way valve as you did, but I have my gene hooked into a vacuum line. This will mean that instead of the gene working in a vacuum, it will be continuously sucking in air through the airstone. My solution, which I have not yet had time to implement, is to totally fill the generator with electrolite and half fill the bubbler. That way when the vacuum sucks the electrolite, it will flow into the bubbler but still leave a decent airgap so it won't go into the engine. When the engine stops, the gene will suck back out of the bubbler but they should end at the same level that they strated with.
Does this make sense? let me know of your thoughts... |
There seems to be a lot of argument about whether it is best to connect into vacuum or not, but if you must then why not use the method that the water4gas guys use, that is a adjustable breather on top of cell, (made from an irrigation drip nozzle) with a tube going down to bottom of cell.
This injects an adjustable amount of extra air into cell which bubbles up past elements and helps move the hydroxy bubbles quicker, also means you won't have the problem you have with pullback of bubbler water. |
Garth the adjustable breather will work.
As for where to put the HHO I have had mine running at both vac and air intake. I have now
changed over to just the air intake. I found after measuring the vac is was just so up and down
and seem to draw gas when not accelerating which is not what you want. It also used a lot more water
I now only use the air intake and get better mileage. |
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garthr
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
Age:46
Posts: 152
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes I prefer upstream of throttle also. Seems to be more stable operation. |
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Manstra
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Location: Sydney NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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So you guys think I should be connecting it between the airbox and throttle body? I could put a "T" into my PCV valve hose which connects before between these points. I just thought vacuum would be better.. 
Also, What amps are you pulling and how manylitres/minute of gas are you getting? |
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madmurf
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Age:44
Posts: 24
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Location: Bunbury WA, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Manstra wrote: | So you guys think I should be connecting it between the airbox and throttle body? I could put a "T" into my PCV valve hose which connects before between these points. I just thought vacuum would be better..
Also, What amps are you pulling and how manylitres/minute of gas are you getting? |
Hi Manstra
Lots of variables can effect both of Amps and Litres.
Mine is a complete custom system
Its my 3rd major version.
I pull around 15 amps for 1 litre per min.
I use a PMW which makes sure I dont get run away
in the amps though the current amps setting wont go over 18 amps. I will be selling these cell kits for around $500 once Im confident with the setup and if I get enough enquires.
The number one thing is to only use 316 Stainless
As a rule of thunb 1 litre per 2-3 litre motor for the best milage. Im fitting my second cell this weekend for my 4litre motor.
As far conection goes if its the low Litres Per Min cookie jar type do it via the Vac and before the throttle body.
This duel entry setup will need a check valve at the throttle body. The reason is most gas will enter via the vac port until you use the left foot for hi acceleration at which point the air inlet will create the most vacuum. I hope this makes sense. 
The better units only require entry via the normal intake. |
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madmurf
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Age:44
Posts: 24
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Location: Bunbury WA, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Hi
Well the latest on my setup. I found out bigger isnt always better.
I fitted my new cell second cell. But because I didnt allow for the extra volts and amps required to run to run both units I went back to 16.2 litres per 100Ks.
The science behind this is the following.
To achieve electrolysis and for one cell to work you need at least 1.24volts across the plates (the more amps the better).Any volts above this is actually turned into heat. As I am running 6 neutrals between my positive and neg plate assembly it acts like a series of resisters. With two cells this voltage drop across the cell plates is even less. I would need to run around 40 plus amps to achieve production but as my PWM only handles 30 amps it didn’t produce even close to enough HHO.
Sorry if fell asleep reading that bit.
So its back to the drawing board and one cell. I think I was getting greedy trying to get even better economy on the LPG/HHO system. |
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garthr
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
Age:46
Posts: 152
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| madmurf wrote: | Hi
Well the latest on my setup. I found out bigger isnt always better.
I fitted my new cell second cell. But because I didnt allow for the extra volts and amps required to run to run both units I went back to 16.2 litres per 100Ks.
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Hi,
Are You meaning 16.2 kilometers/litre or 16.2 litres/100 km
Just seems like really bad mileage even for an AU (or is it not standard?) |
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madmurf
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Age:44
Posts: 24
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Location: Bunbury WA, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Garth
16.2 litres per 100Ks. I drive really hard and it was quite a bit of city.
I know the taxi boys only get around 15 to 20 litres
per 100Ks most closer to the 20 Litres mark.
Back to one cell and really happy with production.
Just fitted a HHO system to the daughters Lanos and it seems to be running very well.
Cheers
Madmurf |
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Manstra
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Location: Sydney NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: multi cell |
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Guys,
Thinking about putting another cell into my generator. It will be in the1 tube but 2 sets of plates inside. Looking at setup of -nnn+nnn-nnn+ Do you think this will work? I have heard a lot about series and parallel arguement but not sure which way I should go here to.Any thoughts would be most welcome.
I seem to be getting good results with this cell at the moment. 11.2 litres/100 km and deceasing. This is only over 250kms in town running. Can't wait to hit the open road and see what I can get out of it.
My cell last week blew the 15Amp fuse. I have gone back to a 30 and that seems to be holding up ok. At idle and cold it is pulling 8.8Amps but I don't have an ammetre wired into it in car, so no idea what it is pulling when I am driving it.
Let you know of more results as they come in. |
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