Home |  Forums |  Search |  My Profile |  Chat  Photo Gallery |  Events Calendar |  Technical Documents  No messages |  New Posts |  Watched Topics |  Register   Positive Displacement Charger question Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 10, 11, 12  Next          Forum Index -> Forced Induction Workshop Latest ratings Highest-ranked posts Highest-ranked topics Highest-ranked posters   xcabbi Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:26 Posts: 5616 Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Location: Wollongong NSW, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:46 pm    Post subject: Slick wrote: Considering the pro-charger F-3R-139 makes 45psi at max boost. but with the new antonov drive hitting the market, it'll boost as soon as you turn your ignition on they're are talking about a particular hummer going into production with antonov S/C??? drives because it was useless to go turdbo with that amount of weight. Don't get me wrong, that charger above will only suit high end application more. you'll need a high rev engine to use the max boost. but who would be crazy enough to drive that on a day to day basis. LOL, why go fishing when you can do it from the comfort of home! Anyway back on topic. How is the antonov geared. Is it a 2 or 3 speed box or is it rather an overdrive/underdrive CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission). Thought of like a set of infinite ratio's. I know that the gear vendors gearbox overdrive unit retails for a around 2.5k US so I'm guessing the antonov will retail for either similar dollars or maybe double the price depending on its complexity. And yes before you ask I'd be crazy enough to use that everyday providing I can afford the maintanance program of something like that. Back to top Steady ED Fordmods Addict Age:22 Posts: 6415 Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Location: Melbourne VIC, Australia View User Gallery (13) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: 2 Speed, there was good info i found somewhere via google, it uses a rotrex compressor. The gearbox is loooong but. Looked like 3-4 times the length of your average centrifugal blower with only 1 speed, from the pics anyway. Back to top xcabbi Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:26 Posts: 5616 Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Location: Wollongong NSW, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: That would mean they would have to get the gearing spot on for each individual application otherwise there will be a definite drop in torque then the gearbox switches gears. Back to top Slick Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:39 Posts: 4284 Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: They only made that gear drive for the Rotrex centrifugal charger so far. don't know yet if the plans are up & running for a universal unit. the idea of the drive is to run the blower really fast at low engine speed. the gearing suppose to automatically shift up seamlessly so it'll operate efficiently at high engine revs. basically an automatic drive. Thats right xcabbi, depending on how you like your setup. it has to be geared to match the engine type from what I gather. example: to run a centri like the procharger mentioned previously with a speed limit of 55000rpm. the step-up gear in the centri would run in the vicinity of a ratio of 11:1, for a engine that max out at 5000rpm. thats where the antonov comes in, the drive gear will step-down the ratio to reduce the external blower overdrive pulley speed at max engine revs, but the blower itself is spinning cross to its max speed. don't take my word for it, but its an example. Back to top fritzz Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:19 Posts: 825 Joined: 26 Nov 2004 Location: Waroona WA, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: xfpaul wrote: turbos work really well on high fast rev motors with close ratio boxes to keep em on the power curve, dont think that includes any falcon i6 ever made u clearly do not know what u are talking about. Back to top xcabbi Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:26 Posts: 5616 Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Location: Wollongong NSW, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Slick wrote: They only made that gear drive for the Rotrex centrifugal charger so far. don't know yet if the plans are up & running for a universal unit. the idea of the drive is to run the blower really fast at low engine speed. the gearing suppose to automatically shift up seamlessly so it'll operate efficiently at high engine revs. basically an automatic drive. Thats right xcabbi, depending on how you like your setup. it has to be geared to match the engine type from what I gather. example: to run a centri like the procharger mentioned previously with a speed limit of 55000rpm. the step-up gear in the centri would run in the vicinity of a ratio of 11:1, for a engine that max out at 5000rpm. thats where the antonov comes in, the drive gear will step-down the ratio to reduce the external blower overdrive pulley speed at max engine revs, but the blower itself is spinning cross to its max speed. don't take my word for it, but its an example. This is where a CVT would absolutely kick a***. Constant boost all the way from idle right through to redline with no drop offs/steps what so ever. Back to top Slick Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:39 Posts: 4284 Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:19 pm    Post subject: xcabbi wrote: Slick wrote: They only made that gear drive for the Rotrex centrifugal charger so far. don't know yet if the plans are up & running for a universal unit. the idea of the drive is to run the blower really fast at low engine speed. the gearing suppose to automatically shift up seamlessly so it'll operate efficiently at high engine revs. basically an automatic drive. Thats right xcabbi, depending on how you like your setup. it has to be geared to match the engine type from what I gather. example: to run a centri like the procharger mentioned previously with a speed limit of 55000rpm. the step-up gear in the centri would run in the vicinity of a ratio of 11:1, for a engine that max out at 5000rpm. thats where the antonov comes in, the drive gear will step-down the ratio to reduce the external blower overdrive pulley speed at max engine revs, but the blower itself is spinning cross to its max speed. don't take my word for it, but its an example. This is where a CVT would absolutely kick a***. Constant boost all the way from idle right through to redline with no drop offs/steps what so ever. Could do but with something alot simpler in design & cost effective, like the Nuvinci bicycle CTV. but you'll need a external control, I guess thats where a vacuum actuator comes in. the antonov design operates by centrifugal force. in other words, a more advance centrifugal clutch drive. Back to top xfpaul Fordmods Parts Gopher Age:45 Posts: 74 Joined: 12 Jun 2005 Location: hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:32 pm    Post subject: has anyone built ,driven and owned 650+kw engine, i have, i want hear from them Back to top Slick Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:39 Posts: 4284 Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:13 pm    Post subject: Priestly007 wrote: Slick wrote: LOL, theres nothing wrong with turbos or S/C. but the twins or roots are still the best! the centri are slowly making their make. sooner or later, they will be replacing turdbo altogether as product development progresses. take the pro-charger F-3R-139 for instance, thats a 2700hp 4000CFM with a max speed of 55000rpm. a turbo could never blow 1/2 that amount of air at that speed. ROFL replace the turbo altogether? You'd have to be a halfwit...... The government controls emission laws so it'll greatly effect the future for car makers. a smart car maker would grab the idea & run with it. have a read of this cut & paste then click on the link below it if you wanna keep up wit da times! Antonov anticipates demand for the drive system will come from carmakers needing to downsize engines in pursuit of better fuel efficiency and reduced CO2 emissions. The trouble with smaller displacement engines is the loss of low end torque; hence the need to compensate through forced induction to restore the driveability of the vehicle and its engine performance characteristics. Many industry pundits consider the trend to smaller engines unavoidable in pursuit of improved powertrain efficiency and the ultimate market potential therefore could be as high as 100 million engines annually reflecting global vehicle production forecasts over the next 10 to 20 years. http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060519.006/first-2-speed-supercharger-drive-system idiots! lol Back to top Slick Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:39 Posts: 4284 Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:47 pm    Post subject: if you think that was the end of it. have any of you heard of traction gear drive?... an actual pulley driven turbo. it has a fixed gear ratio around 13:1 & impeller speed up to 240K's. they're slowly integrating them in to exotic cars, the likes of the ferrari F360 & F430 modena. they're twin head units by the way. even standard twin head units on the Caparo freestream T1......... Back to top Mr.Kiss Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:21 Posts: 708 Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Location: S.E. Melbourne VIC, Australia View User Gallery (21) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:19 am    Post subject: xfpaul wrote: turbos work really well on high fast rev motors with close ratio boxes to keep em on the power curve, dont think that includes any falcon i6 ever made LOL!!! What planet are you from?? Ever driven a turbo Falcon?? From that comment i guess not... Back to top EL XR8 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:24 Posts: 2262 Joined: 11 Nov 2004 Location: Melbourne VIC, Australia View User Gallery (30) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: xfpaul wrote: has anyone built ,driven and owned 650+kw engine, i have, i want hear from them and we'd believe this because, you say so......I find it hard for someone to have built a 650kw motor, to have no idea how a turbo would work and on what motor... Back to top badcooky Fordmods Stock as a Rock Posts: 151 Joined: 27 Jan 2007 Location: Toowoomba QLD, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Positive Displacement Charger question danbode wrote: Hi there is there any kind of positive displacement supercharger out there that i can run 15PSI + with on an ED XR6? would it be better to get a positive displacment type or the other kind like the rapter V running that kind of boost? cheers Daniel Back to top badcooky Fordmods Stock as a Rock Posts: 151 Joined: 27 Jan 2007 Location: Toowoomba QLD, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: danbode wrote: yer i know but im dead keen on charging it. Back to top badcooky Fordmods Stock as a Rock Posts: 151 Joined: 27 Jan 2007 Location: Toowoomba QLD, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:01 pm    Post subject: danbode wrote: yer sorry guys but im dead keen on the blower, and i will pay for it, but i am a fitter and turner so i can do alot of the work. Back to top xcabbi Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:26 Posts: 5616 Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Location: Wollongong NSW, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: Slick wrote: xcabbi wrote: Slick wrote: They only made that gear drive for the Rotrex centrifugal charger so far. don't know yet if the plans are up & running for a universal unit. the idea of the drive is to run the blower really fast at low engine speed. the gearing suppose to automatically shift up seamlessly so it'll operate efficiently at high engine revs. basically an automatic drive. Thats right xcabbi, depending on how you like your setup. it has to be geared to match the engine type from what I gather. example: to run a centri like the procharger mentioned previously with a speed limit of 55000rpm. the step-up gear in the centri would run in the vicinity of a ratio of 11:1, for a engine that max out at 5000rpm. thats where the antonov comes in, the drive gear will step-down the ratio to reduce the external blower overdrive pulley speed at max engine revs, but the blower itself is spinning cross to its max speed. don't take my word for it, but its an example. This is where a CVT would absolutely kick a***. Constant boost all the way from idle right through to redline with no drop offs/steps what so ever. Could do but with something alot simpler in design & cost effective, like the Nuvinci bicycle CTV. but you'll need a external control, I guess thats where a vacuum actuator comes in. the antonov design operates by centrifugal force. in other words, a more advance centrifugal clutch drive. Thinking about the antonov 2 speed box there is a way in which it could work. Looking at compressor maps there are islands of equal efficiency. Therefore there are multiple states (mass air flow and pressure satios) where the efficiency is the same. So by spinning the turbo past its max efficiency back on to a certain efficiency (say e.g. 65%) then gearing it back down so that 65% efficiency is reached at a lower maf and/or pressure ratio the blower will still be picking up efficiency throughout the rest of the rev range. The only problem here is, does the rest of the engine have an adiabatic efficiency matched to the blower throughout the whole rev range. Having said that I think antonov's are aimed purely at true street stump pullers. The street/strip guys want their torque peaks as high in the rev range as possible. How many people don't get this so I try can word it in a different manner. Back to top Redford Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Donating Member Age:39 Posts: 549 Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia View User Gallery (4) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: Slick wrote: Nah man, S/C is the best. terdbos will never break a top-fuel quarter mile record! LOL I thought this debate about turbo V's S/C was over. why are you guys being so persistent about it. xfpaul wrote: turbos work really well on high fast rev motors with close ratio boxes to keep em on the power curve, dont think that includes any falcon i6 ever made i totally agree, in racing applications turbos do work much better on high rpm, narrow powerband, short strokes such as the RB engines. there are plenty of 7 and 8 second skylines around, so why not the ford i6? Back to top xfpaul Fordmods Parts Gopher Age:45 Posts: 74 Joined: 12 Jun 2005 Location: hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:05 pm    Post subject: EL XR8 wrote: xfpaul wrote: has anyone built ,driven and owned 650+kw engine, i have, i want hear from them and we'd believe this because, you say so......I find it hard for someone to have built a 650kw motor, to have no idea how a turbo would work and on what motor... the fact the im a qualified mechanic, owned a blown,nitrous 1966 chev street car and was runner up in the tasmanian drag championships to a pro stock , drove a new fpv turb two weeks ago and its f*****ing slow, not my words that was the ford salesman(mate) that drove my car the same day ill help anyone who wants to learn, ya cant beat practical exp. last post from this idiot Back to top schnoods Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:23 Posts: 1286 Joined: 25 May 2006 Location: Perth WA, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Redford wrote: Slick wrote: Nah man, S/C is the best. terdbos will never break a top-fuel quarter mile record! LOL I thought this debate about turbo V's S/C was over. why are you guys being so persistent about it. xfpaul wrote: turbos work really well on high fast rev motors with close ratio boxes to keep em on the power curve, dont think that includes any falcon i6 ever made i totally agree, in racing applications turbos do work much better on high rpm, narrow powerband, short strokes such as the RB engines. there are plenty of 7 and 8 second skylines around, so why not the ford i6? The block and the long stroke is what is holding it back. I dunno about plenty of 7 sec skylines though, as far as I know there are about 7 worldwide. (few years ago...) Mind you Nizpro's 1000 hp BA XR6T motor with a Lenco and a purpose rear end would have enough to do it, thought it aint exactly a car then... Im surprised this thread has gone from positive displacement blowers to topfuelers and 7 sec skylines lol. Thing is, the ford i6 compared to the skyline i6 is just worlds apart. They might have the same configuration, but what we have over here and what skylines have done worldwide racing wise as well as development is something you cant compare. You could build a "nissan" motor from about 8 different parts catalogues without even having a stock nissan part..... Back to top schnoods Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:23 Posts: 1286 Joined: 25 May 2006 Location: Perth WA, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:13 pm    Post subject: xfpaul wrote: EL XR8 wrote: xfpaul wrote: has anyone built ,driven and owned 650+kw engine, i have, i want hear from them and we'd believe this because, you say so......I find it hard for someone to have built a 650kw motor, to have no idea how a turbo would work and on what motor... the fact the im a qualified mechanic, owned a blown,nitrous 1966 chev street car and was runner up in the tasmanian drag championships to a pro stock , drove a new fpv turb two weeks ago and its f*****ing slow, not my words that was the ford salesman(mate) that drove my car the same day ill help anyone who wants to learn, ya cant beat practical exp. last post from this idiot Just out of curiosity what time did it run and what sort of chev is it?? 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