Home |  Forums |  Search |  My Profile |  Chat  Photo Gallery |  Events Calendar |  Technical Documents  No messages |  New Posts |  Watched Topics |  Register   Megasquirts Goto page Previous  1, 2          Forum Index -> ECU and Fuel System Forum Latest ratings Highest-ranked posts Highest-ranked topics Highest-ranked posters   justfordima Technical Contributor Age:22 Posts: 2791 Joined: 06 Nov 2004 Location: Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (7) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: I have also been interested in teh megasquirt for a while.. and if there's gonna be a group buy, I should be in. Not meaning to hijacking the thread, but have you read about the Simulator, and will you be getting one? Are they really as useful as people make them out to be? Also, unclewoja you said to solder on a DB37 plug... what about all the accessories and the transmission that relies on the ECU?? don't you need the original EEC there? Cheers Back to top raiki Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:33 Posts: 450 Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject: I just checked, the MAF is 0-5V. The MAP is freq so if you have a V8 the jaycar thing is useful. If you have a 6, then buy an 8. Back to top Hyena Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:29 Posts: 1518 Joined: 06 Nov 2004 Location: The Shire, Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (14) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Bah, why would I want to go slower Unfortunate they don't work on the 6s, it would have been a cheap fun toy to play with. justfordima, I assume you'd only be patched into the relevant wires going to/from the EECV. You're not cutting and patching all of them. Back to top justfordima Technical Contributor Age:22 Posts: 2791 Joined: 06 Nov 2004 Location: Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (7) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:06 pm    Post subject: yeah, thats what I was assuming.. but the way he worded it sounded like he meant that you do that to the whole loom.. which got me think on how you would fit so many wires onto a DB37... So, which parts exactly are you buying for the megasquirt Hyena? Cheers Back to top raiki Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:33 Posts: 450 Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Hyena wrote: Bah, why would I want to go slower Them there are fighting words. Back to top raiki Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:33 Posts: 450 Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:09 pm    Post subject: Another thing I have thought about, I dont think the original MS could inject sequentially, only bank fire. The Ultra might. That wont bother you people with the 2 missing cylinders but it bothers me Back to top justfordima Technical Contributor Age:22 Posts: 2791 Joined: 06 Nov 2004 Location: Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (7) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject: raiki wrote: Another thing I have thought about, I dont think the original MS could inject sequentially, only bank fire. The Ultra might. That wont bother you people with the 2 missing cylinders but it bothers me firstly it could do sequential.. I read it.. it had three types of injection.. secondly, you gained the 2 cylinders and the weight that goes with them... not we lost... Cheers Back to top 4.9 EF Futura Moderator Age:27 Posts: 8658 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Adelaide CBD SA, Australia View User Gallery (37) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: raiki wrote: I just checked, the MAF is 0-5V. The MAP is freq so if you have a V8 the jaycar thing is useful. If you have a 6, then buy an 8. Same goes for pretty much all interceptor units, I believe the Apexi one is popular amoungst ricers (as most ricers have facotry MAFs with MAP only for measuring boost... until they get into MAFless tunes). *ignores Hyena's constant badgering of the 8* lol Back to top raiki Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:33 Posts: 450 Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject: The original MS cannot do Sequential. That may not be a problem, read below taken from the MS site Q. Can I do sequential injection with MegaSquirt? A. There are two common sorts of injection: Throttle body injection - usually one or two injecotrs for the whole engine Port injection (aka. Multi-Port) - one injector per cylinder Then there are three common modes of injection timing: batch - all injectors fire at once, but not timed to any specific cylinder event, bank - ½ the injectors fire at once, then the other ½, and so on, but not timed to any specific cylinder event, sequential - each injector fires at a specific point in the 4-stroke cyle for each cylinder (i.e., 8 independent timing events) Throttle body injected cars are usually batch or bank fire, simply because of the geometry. Most port injection set-ups before the mid-1990s were bank fire as well (including GM Tuned Port Injection for the 305/350). Sequential injection requires: at least as many injectors as you have cylinders, with one dedicated to each cylinder (i.e., not a 4 injector TBI on a 4 cylinder). as many injector drivers as you have cylinders, and also requires a camshaft position sensor (a crank sensor is not adequate for a 4-stroke cycle engine). However, sequential injection does not necessarily mean you are injecting into an open intake valve all the time. The intake valve is only open less than 30% of the time in a typical 4 stroke engine. Once you are trying to produce more than about 25% of maximum HP your injectors are firing for longer than the intake valves are open. If your maximum HP is correctly calibrated to a safe 80% duty cycle, your injectors are injecting well over 50% of the time on closed valves. MegaSquirt has just two injector drivers (that can handle up to ten injectors each), and no provisions for a cam sensor signal, so it would be difficult to make it into a sequential injection system. The benefits of sequential injection are that: you may get slightly better mileage and lower emissions at low engine speeds, you can tune each cylinder's fuel amount independently (if you know how). The effect on maximum horsepower is general negligible. Back to top 4.9 EF Futura Moderator Age:27 Posts: 8658 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Adelaide CBD SA, Australia View User Gallery (37) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:18 pm    Post subject: That would provide a problem for the SEFI V8 (and AU above I6 i would think?).... although it would be interesting to hear people's comments on reverting this to a bank fire system? Bit of a step backwards but as noted above, only really an issue at idle/low RPM. Back to top justfordima Technical Contributor Age:22 Posts: 2791 Joined: 06 Nov 2004 Location: Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (7) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: ok, thats what I read lol... my bad... I mustve disregarded that last bit about cam sensor signal. Cheers for the info Back to top raiki Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:33 Posts: 450 Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: justfordima wrote: ok, thats what I read lol... my bad... I mustve disregarded that last bit about cam sensor signal. Cheers for the info Don't feel bad. I wasn't trying to shoot you down, I was just giving everyone all the info. Back to top Waggin Site Admin Age:25 Posts: 6759 Joined: 18 Dec 2002 Location: Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (3) Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject: EB-EL 4L all use Bank fire (2 banks of 3). AU 4L onwards uses Sequential. So yes, it would be an issue for AU4L and EB V8 onwards. But then again.. how much of a wank is SEFI? I'm going to be using it on my waggin, cos I can. But its not a huge deal... just like injector timing. There are MASSIVE threads for all ECU's which support adjustable injector timing, and no one seems to be able to agree if there are performance advantages to be had. Back to top Macca Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:36 Posts: 3218 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Singleton NSW, Australia View User Gallery (15) Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:18 am    Post subject: Waggin wrote: EB-EL 4L all use Bank fire (2 banks of 3). AU 4L onwards uses Sequential. So yes, it would be an issue for AU4L and EB V8 onwards. But then again.. how much of a wank is SEFI? I'm going to be using it on my waggin, cos I can. But its not a huge deal... just like injector timing. There are MASSIVE threads for all ECU's which support adjustable injector timing, and no one seems to be able to agree if there are performance advantages to be had. Nahh I think the debates of performance gains from SEFI are long over, SEFI is more for the fuel economy, emissions and higher state of tune you can get at low rpm or cruise conditions, so it might take some of the gruff out of it at idle compared to bank injection. Back to top unclewoja Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:26 Posts: 533 Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Location: Melbourne VIC, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:56 am    Post subject: If you read ion the MS site somewhere, or even if you do the calculations yourself, you'll find that sequential and banked are exactally the same above about 2800RPM full throttle, 12.5:1 AFR. The thing about sequential is that it injects the fuel into the cylinder when the intake valve is open. If you've got 270 degrees duration on the intake valve, you've got 16 miliseconds to inject the fuel within the 270 degrees valve duration @ 2800 prm Go any fater than that and all of a sudden you need to open the injector BEFORE the intake valve opens. When you're producing max power and your injectors are at 80% duty cycle, (i'e open 80% of the time) obviously there is fuel being injected when the vavle is closed. Work it out! If you've got 270 degrees duration every 2 revs, the intake valve is open 37.5% of the time, but the injector is open 80% of the time. So, like it states on the MS site, sequential will give you a slightly smoother idle, lower emissions and a bit better fuel economy. Now, consider this! A banked injection system giving you an AFR of 16.5:1 (max economy) is going to give you far, far, far better economy than a sequential system running at 14.7:1 like the Falcon does. So any economy gains you get from running sequential @ 14.7:1 AFR over banked @ 14.7:1 AFR are going to be overshadowed when you use MS and run your engine @ 16.5:1 AFR even though it's banked injection. Back to top 4.9 EF Futura Moderator Age:27 Posts: 8658 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Adelaide CBD SA, Australia View User Gallery (37) Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:32 am    Post subject: Waggin wrote: EB-EL 4L all use Bank fire (2 banks of 3). AU 4L onwards uses Sequential. So yes, it would be an issue for AU4L and EB V8 onwards. But then again.. how much of a wank is SEFI? I'm going to be using it on my waggin, cos I can. But its not a huge deal... just like injector timing. There are MASSIVE threads for all ECU's which support adjustable injector timing, and no one seems to be able to agree if there are performance advantages to be had. I guess i was thinking about the architechture of the wiring system - how much would need to be changed to "covert" a SEFI loom to a bank-fire MPEFI, and what other little "intricacies" you'd come across in doing so?? And if SEFI is a factor only below 2800rpm, it sounds like it contributes a fair bit to driveability.... (i.e. i didnt see anything above 3 grand coming into work this morning)... prolly not an issue for stocko/forced induction engines but surely there's good driveability gains to be had on a radical n/a tune? BTW.... is running an engine at 16.5:1 AF a good idea? Even under cruising? Never experimented myself but ive read that running an engine lean over prolonged period tends to shorten its life.... Back to top raiki Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:33 Posts: 450 Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:42 am    Post subject: An engine run too lean will burn out it valves. It has bought many an airplane over the years. In the planes the pilot has full control over the mixture and we use the exhaust gas temperature as an indicater of mixture. You lean it out to peak EGT then richen it up a little to stop the vavle burn out. If an angine is designed to run at 14.7 then leave it there. If you do the maths and workout the cost saving of running 16.5 versus installation cost, engine wear etc. then I think you would give up on it. If you are tuning for max performance then thats a different story. Back to top Waggin Site Admin Age:25 Posts: 6759 Joined: 18 Dec 2002 Location: Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (3) Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject: 4.9 EF Futura wrote: I guess i was thinking about the architechture of the wiring system - how much would need to be changed to "covert" a SEFI loom to a bank-fire MPEFI, and what other little "intricacies" you'd come across in doing so?? It would be a no brainer. Just connect your X opposing injectors to one injector driver, and the other X opposing on the other. Going from Bank or Batch to SEFI is a little harder, as you'd have to install individual wiring to each injector. Back to top unclewoja Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:26 Posts: 533 Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Location: Melbourne VIC, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: raiki wrote: An engine run too lean will burn out it valves. It has bought many an airplane over the years. In the planes the pilot has full control over the mixture and we use the exhaust gas temperature as an indicater of mixture. You lean it out to peak EGT then richen it up a little to stop the vavle burn out. If an angine is designed to run at 14.7 then leave it there. If you do the maths and workout the cost saving of running 16.5 versus installation cost, engine wear etc. then I think you would give up on it. If you are tuning for max performance then thats a different story. Agree. Running an engine too lean will burn out valves. If you run an engine @ 16.5:1 AFR @ full throttle then you will burn out valves. However, when you're cruising along the freeway with the engine producing 10-20% of max power, the amount of heat that is required to burn out valves simply isn't being created because the engine power is so low. Running an aircraft engine @ 16.5:1 AFR in a 75% cruise is very, very different to cruising along the freeway in a 20% cruise with 16.5:1 AFR. Running 16.5:1 instead of 14.7:1 will get you a lot further on a tank of gas. Some people who have used MS have reported up to 25% more mileage out of a tank when they tuned their engine for 16.5:1 instead of 14.7:1. Most of the car companies are now incorporating wideband oxy sensors into their higher spec cars and running them @ 16.5:1 in cruise. Also, have you ever heard the term "lean burn engine" These are the Jap engines that are incredibly efficient and the reason they get such good economy is because they run @ 16.5:1 in the cruise. So while you're right, you're actually speaking in the wrong context. And there are a lot of d***head out there who don't know how to lean a plane out correctly(Yes I do know what I''m talking about cause I'm a pilot too) There's actually a lot about engines that isn't covered with standard aviation theory. I was tought for instance, that carbies used in cars did not posess any sort of accel enrichment devices. Now that was COMPLETELY wrong! Back to top unclewoja Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:26 Posts: 533 Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Location: Melbourne VIC, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:21 am    Post subject: Waggin wrote: 4.9 EF Futura wrote: I guess i was thinking about the architechture of the wiring system - how much would need to be changed to "covert" a SEFI loom to a bank-fire MPEFI, and what other little "intricacies" you'd come across in doing so?? It would be a no brainer. Just connect your X opposing injectors to one injector driver, and the other X opposing on the other. Going from Bank or Batch to SEFI is a little harder, as you'd have to install individual wiring to each injector. To make the best of it, you should wire up your injectors so that, starting from no 1 cyl, the first three cylinders that fire are bank 1, and the last 3 that fire are bank 2. There are also people that believe that the pressure drop in the port when the intake valve opent is dramatic enough to re-atomise any fuel sitting in the port and as such, it makes very little difference when the fuel is injected. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First             Forum Index -> ECU and Fuel System Forum Goto page Previous  1, 2 Page 2 of 2   (c)2002-2008 Matti Jones and Brad Evans [47 queries :: 0.08962 seconds ]