Home |  Forums |  Search |  My Profile |  Chat  Photo Gallery |  Events Calendar |  Technical Documents  No messages |  New Posts |  Watched Topics |  Register   Eb2-Ed I6 Alternator Upgrade? Goto page 1, 2  Next          Forum Index -> 6 Cylinder Workshop Latest ratings Highest-ranked posts Highest-ranked topics Highest-ranked posters   Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:06 am    Post subject: Eb2-Ed I6 Alternator Upgrade? Has anybody managed to upgrade their alternator to 100amp plus on these models without doing a serpentine belt conversion? If so, could you please share how you did it, ie. with what alternator and what mods, if any were needed. Best regards, Paul Back to top Kenwood Maverick Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:25 Posts: 594 Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: Southern Highlands NSW, Australia View User Gallery (9) Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:54 pm    Post subject: havent done it but looking at it for the EA, you should be able to take the ef/el one (120amp i think), gut it and put inside your EB housing with the fan belt pulley instead of the serp belt... then it mounts straight up as it did previously Back to top snap0964 Technical Contributor Age:44 Posts: 3018 Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Location: South Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:27 pm    Post subject: What are you running now??: Bosch 60/70/85A or Mitsubishi 70/85A You can go up to either EL (100A) or EF (110A) both Mitsubishis, but you will need a mitsubishi alt to start out with to interchange parts Also depends why you need to go beyond 85A - are you running thermos or something else that demands the extra charging current. Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject: snap0964, Mate, we currently have the 70amp Mitsubishi in an EB2 GLI Auto with smartlock and abs. It's currently VOR as I'm fitting an EL I6 and a 3.45 LSD. As part of a general upgrade I thought I'd modernise it a bit with EL fans and Spack cluster. Our car has air, efi, auto, 2x 100w high beams, car fridge, trailer/caravan duties, all eating into the meagre 70amps max. I feel I need to upgrade and may as well bypass the 85amps and look at a min of 100amps. The idling or low speed charge rate is of more interest to me than at highway speeds although when towing, with the kids in the car and air/lights on I feel the thermos may get a work out even then. I also have 2x130w driving lights to refit, I took them off last summer, one more reason to upgrade the alternator. I only want known solutions because the cars about ready to go back on the road and reliability is a major factor when carting the family on hols etc. Our trips are usually from the Central Coast tp Narooma, Lismore and Brisbane, 3 kids wife and I, usually with boat/caravan/trailer to give you an idea of our needs and concerns over charge rates. I don't have much prior knowledge of what parts interchange with later model Fords, hence my post and I am open to all known solutions. In theory, as I haven't had an EF alt in my mitts, my only concern with what you're suggesting is if there is adequate cooling flow through the 70amp casing once upgraded. What do you think? Cheers Paul Back to top webby_191189 Fordmods Parts Gopher Age:19 Posts: 76 Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Location: Swan Hill VIC, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Then why not just do a serpentine conversion while your at it? Theres guides over on ford forums about it Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Thanks Webby, but... Don't need to, don't want to, don't like depending on only one belt, don't need extra moving parts, don't have the parts, don't intend paying for them. For all those who say they're no problem spend as much time as I do on the freeway actually stopping to help people with their bonnet up with serp belt probs or count the "that doesn't usually happen" on postings when some one says "my belt came off" both here and at AFF. Besides I've already got spare belts and don't want to waste them. LOL Cheers Paul Back to top snap0964 Technical Contributor Age:44 Posts: 3018 Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Location: South Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 pm    Post subject: Paulmac wrote: In theory, as I haven't had an EF alt in my mitts, my only concern with what you're suggesting is if there is adequate cooling flow through the 70amp casing once upgraded. What do you think? Cheers Paul Okay, I get the picture with the power demand now . . . . I'll agree to disagree on the serp belt issue. You 'should' be able to swap the 70A pulley/rotor/front case into a 100/110A rear case and stator - just note any spacers between the rear bearing and the rear case. AFAIK only the stators vary - with extra windings for the higher output. Also I think the rear plug connectors vary too, but should be easy to wire up. You'll probably find it best to renew front and rear bearings, and the brushes - the slip rings should be reasonably okay, as they are designed to only carry small current through the rotor. Cooling in the case should be fine. I have stripped a few mitzi alts down, but haven't swapped internals, so it may be wise to check with an autoelectrician's opinion with what you're doing. The main thing to be careful with is getting the front pulley off - the retaining nut can be quite tight, and the usual way to mount it in a vice is to use an old belt wrapped around, but of course you don't want to damage or warp the pulley. Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:49 pm    Post subject: Thanks Snap, Nothing to disagree with on the serp. issue, I'm not against any one having them, they have their good points and proponents. As with BBM's, for my car and uses, I don't see a pressing need to rush out and change my setup for what I see as marginal gains with often dismissed drawbacks. I'm not about to campaign against their use, for some they're practical for many they're cosmetic but if they're happy, it's all good. To the alternator, I have pulled apart for minor self servicing many alternators so that doesn't faze me. I also know the usual procedures to swap internals BUT when it comes to soldering I am the most ham-fisted FW in the world. I consider it a victory when soldering 2 spliced wires is successful, so your advice on seeing an autolec will be followed. I have a spare 70amp Mitzi, so I'll go see a golf mate who has/is a local autolec to see what he has there to play with. Our local wreckers are dear as poison, so I may source an EF elsewhere [if I can find one] or an EL and experiment/document it. Thanks for your input, I was dreading "I think you can..." answers but having enjoyed your tech articles and their high standard, I'm willing to take a punt. I still hope any others who have accomplished an upgrade do answer as it would be of great interest to many, especially the 120amp Bosch swap over. Thanks again for your help. Paul Ps. Rattle guns are good on retaining nuts, not so much pressure required on the pulley, but you probably know that, I'm just showing off. LOL Paul Back to top snap0964 Technical Contributor Age:44 Posts: 3018 Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Location: South Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject: Thanks Paul. Serp belts are only an issue if they're not periodically checked for wear, and the tensioner pulley bearings not replaced in their life. Otherwise, a seized bearing or broken belt can do some pretty bad damage. IMO a BBM is a worthwhile mod (if they're picked up cheap) - I've converted my XH, along with installing a std EF cam (again cheap), and the torque improvement was quite noticeable in the 50-80kmh range, but again, each to their own. I think you've picked the best option with your alternator, and since the autoelectrician is a mate, you should be able to upgrade for cheap. Rattleguns can be good - but be careful when restraining the alternator, as you don't want to damage the pulley or the rotor poles. If the front bearing feels good, then you may not need to dismantle the pulley anyway. It's just a case of fitting the front assy to an EF/EL rear case and stator - but of course note any spacer washers, etc, as the rotor needs to not foul anything when the cases are together and screws are done up. Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Great advice on checking all belts, pulleys etc. regularly, if more people actually maintained their vehicle most problems would not arise. Now that we have an EL engine and an ECU I may try a BBM conversion if only for better access to the port side of the engine. The better grunt is attractive for our uses, and I would like to get the best out of the engine. I thought the time/expense of doing the BBM conversion on the stock EB2 unjustifiable, given the "hiccups" many people publish after installing it. I usually don't "do" dynos, but I would be doing before and after dyno runs to quantify the actual results for my car. Both my alternators are in excellent condition so dismantling the front shouldn't be necessary. A transplant as you describe will take but a few minutes and I will do it at home. Autolecs are like plumbers, he may be cheaper, but cheap, never. LOL I'll try him though for an EF rear section, you never know. The reassurance that the EF/EL rear case will interchange is gold, now to go find one or two! Thanks again for your help and advice, Paul Back to top BenJ Cruise Moderator Posts: 1527 Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: Seven Hills, Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (11) Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Hmmmmmmm This sounds like a good easy mod then. If it is really that simple in swapping the rear casing and stator into the EB front then it becomes a DIY job. Paulmac, please update us on how it works out for you. Regards BenJ Back to top snap0964 Technical Contributor Age:44 Posts: 3018 Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Location: South Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Be careful and ask the autoelectrician first - as I say, I think they 'should' be interchangeable - I don't know from experience, but I have read on here that they are, but don't take it as asolute gospel. You will need an extra wire through the firewall for the BBM valve. Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Forgot to thank Kenwood Maverick as he got in first with this suggestion. Snap0964, yes mate, taken under advisement. As I said I'll pay a visit to the autolec to see if he has an EL/EF alt on hand that we can look at. Failing that I'll source one elsewhere, if it doesn't work out I'll either keep it for a future serp. setup or sell it on. I have to take the old block and head to the metal recyclers, the last time I was there they had a pile of BBMs. Maybe I'll get lucky, in which case I'll get back to you for any tips. Hi Ben, sorry about your diff., about to put mine in with fingers crossed, although Vince said it was going great in his car. I will be sure to photograph and list details of whatever I find that works as a simple upgrade, preferably a bolt on, if not the above idea is the next best thing. I've degreased myself for the day, had dinner and now have a cold VB and time to browse the forums. Keep well, Paul Back to top BenJ Cruise Moderator Posts: 1527 Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: Seven Hills, Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (11) Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:05 pm    Post subject: Hey Paul Hope all is well with your diff conversion. Just check the sway bar brackets to make sure they are the same. BenJ Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:39 am    Post subject: Thanks for that Ben, I'll have look later today as best I can. What in particular am I to look for? Vince said all things that had to be done to fit this to an EB2 were done and it was a "simple"bolt on job. I'm tempted to give the engine reassembly a break today and have a go at the diff, I just painted it and it looks too good not to be under the car. But I want the car running for the Koala Park day [just around the corner from home] so first things first, I guess. Cheers Paul Back to top BenJ Cruise Moderator Posts: 1527 Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: Seven Hills, Sydney NSW, Australia View User Gallery (11) Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:00 am    Post subject: The EB swaybar brackets use a bolt and a lever, where the EF uses two bolts. Just make sure you have the correct ones. BenJ Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject: I bought an EF alternator and EL fans today. At first look the alternators are very similar and I can see why one would think they'd interchange. I fitted it up to the old block with only minor easement of the lower engine bracket required. The offset from 12:00 oclock clockwise of the top bolt hole is a problem in that the adjustment bracket does not line up. Either a custom bracket needs to made or a bit of grinder surgery performed on my spare bracket to enable adjustment, I never use the toothed adjuster anyhow so they [the teeth] won't be missed if they have to go. Also the top hole on the EF is not threaded but that's no big problem. I have my doubts about interchanging parts as the EF alt seems much thicker in girth and until I can sneak my wife's dressmakers tape I can't confirm this. Also the bottom bracket arms seem of different length, so the front of one may not sit even with the rear of the other. Also the procedures for breaking apart the Mitsi's requires heating the rear end I'm not sure I want to do this, so it's of to the autolec tomorrow for advice in the absence of any suggestions . If the front can be changed I'll get a price etc., then try it myself, but at the moment I favor utilizing the complete unit, by easing the engine bracket 1mm and modding the adjustment arm, or fabricating a section. Ben, I'll look under the car now and compare it to the EL diff housing. I'm very pleased with the huge amount of air the EL fans move, I'll use Bunter's setup info. as it looks really tidy in his car and I like the idea of "infinitely adjustable" to conditions. Well, back to work. Paul Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Well the EF alternator is fitted to my old engine, Grinder surgery to the bottom and end of the adjuster bracket, a tap or two with a variably adjustable knockometer and it's done. Rough but in, if you knew what you wanted to do up front, the whole deal would take 10 minutes or so, depending largely on if the "new" alternator comes with a lug boss that requires easing of the rear part of the block bracket. Tomorrow, when I do this for real, I will remove the block bracket completely and ease it the 1mm on a bench grinder for accuracy. I kinda cut at a slant with the angle grinder and am not happy with that, if one took a little more care and not big gouges the angle grinder could still be used. Same for the upper bracket. Where the rear arm of the upper bracket joins the front [toothed] part it interferes with the tensioning bolt's nut, but a little more grinding should clear this and still leave a strong support. I haven't fitted a proper ribbed belt yet, got too dark to find it, but a mock up with another belt [with P/s belt fitted} looked good and the pulley alignment can be spaced outwards if need be. I don't think parts will interchange as the 4 screws on the 70amp have 95mm approx. centre to centre and the 110amp screws have 100mm. [These figures are approximate because I used a straight rule and was completely sober at the time] Time for a beer or three, Cheers Paul Back to top snap0964 Technical Contributor Age:44 Posts: 3018 Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Location: South Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Some good info there Paul. So the EF/EL alt pulley suits the EB/ED belt, there's no need to swap pulleys ?? Yeah, sounds logical if there's more stator windings, the case may need to be bigger to accomodate. Back to top Paulmac Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:61 Posts: 637 Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Location: Central Coast NSW, Australia View User Gallery (10) Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Snap, I mocked it up on my old block with the serp. pulley still on. I couldn't find my ribbed belt in the gloom so I used a v-belt. I would have a small punt that, in a pinch, the narrow early ribbed belt will run in the back grooves of the wider serp. pulley. I will know for sure tomorrow, but will be fitting the narrower pulley to the car for normal use. My mate at the wreckers [small town] said I could keep my warranty if I changed the pulley but not if I opened the case. $100 for the alt., some warranty counts. I will still check what can be done in this area if poss. As a precaution [plan B] I checked out the serp. setup and BBM on an EL at the wreckers today in excellent condition, I'm tempted. I forgot to check for an XH tensioner, as I don't want to discard my present, excellent, aircon. Old dogs can be flexible .....sometimes. I can get 6 EF/EL thermos in top nick for $75 per set, do you think any of the members would be interested at that price? Cheers, Paul Last edited by Paulmac on Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First             Forum Index -> 6 Cylinder Workshop Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   (c)2002-2008 Matti Jones and Brad Evans [47 queries :: 0.08573 seconds ]