Home |  Forums |  Search |  My Profile |  Chat  Photo Gallery |  Events Calendar |  Technical Documents  No messages |  New Posts |  Watched Topics |  Register   How far can the Stock ECU be pushed? Goto page 1, 2  Next          Forum Index -> Forced Induction Workshop Latest ratings Highest-ranked posts Highest-ranked topics Highest-ranked posters   Jase Fordmods Stock as a Rock Age:24 Posts: 183 Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Location: Perth WA, Australia View User Gallery (9) Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:55 pm    Post subject: How far can the Stock ECU be pushed? What can you run on the stock ECU? As in boost etc. I was talkin to a guy ages ago who said he was runnin a EL ecu on his EB with about 7 psi of boost, no chip or anythin like that. N a few others who said that id be lucky if my car kept going if i tried to run boost w/o a aftermarket ecu or good chip Has anyone tried? Or seen a running example/actual result? Back to top One Drone Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 2035 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Penrith NSW, Australia View User Gallery (6) Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:28 am    Post subject: Forced Induction? I'm fairly sure you need a chip! Back to top EDXR8 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:29 Posts: 1440 Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Yeah with forced induction you really need to look at a chip. Forced induction needs a lot of extra fuel as well as timing changes, if you try and do it without a chip its a blowen head gasket waiting to happen IMO. Normally even with the chip it can only be pushed to 6-8psi, after that you would be looking at aftermarket. Back to top EBXR8380 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:55 Posts: 2511 Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Location: Penrith NSW, Australia View User Gallery (4) Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:19 am    Post subject: Get the right maf and you'll be fine..The Pro_m univer blow maf through type is popular with twin turbo applications for example.. Back to top 4.9 EF Futura Moderator Age:27 Posts: 8658 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Adelaide CBD SA, Australia View User Gallery (37) Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:53 am    Post subject: EBXR8380 wrote: Get the right maf and you'll be fine..The Pro_m univer blow maf through type is popular with twin turbo applications for example.. Easily done for the 8 but a 6 would need a speed density -> MAF conversion... prolly not too hard to do with a tweecer. The only way i can think someone could run 7psi with no EEC mods is with a steep FMU and retard the buggery out of the base timing..... OK for EA-ED/EL... no hope on EF. Surely you'd need to do something with the MAP?!? I cant imagine a stock sensor would be expecting to see +psi manifold pressure.... Back to top Jase Fordmods Stock as a Rock Age:24 Posts: 183 Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Location: Perth WA, Australia View User Gallery (9) Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:59 pm    Post subject: hmm somethin to think anout n look at. On my 8 we were going to do soem modifications to the maf sensor so i could run a huge cam w/o a chip or anythin, but thats a lil different. I dont know s**t about engine management Does anyone know what TSA use on there stage 1 kits? Always get conflicting advice regarding the ecu, but most say its a no go. Im looking at an ems 8860 form a guy down the road, but wanna check this first. Ive got a to4, intercooler and manifold lined up, but had some unexpected bills, so need to cut back somewhere for a while, or its all a no go. ...should proberly spend the money on sensible stuff for uni n s**t... Ill see what happens but Back to top EDXR8 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:29 Posts: 1440 Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Jase wrote: hmm somethin to think anout n look at. On my 8 we were going to do soem modifications to the maf sensor so i could run a huge cam w/o a chip or anythin, but thats a lil different. I dont know s**t about engine management Altering the MAF sensor really won't do anything at all. You can run pretty big cams on the stock EEC without any mods, how big are you talking about, with a turbo you really don't need huge cams anyway. The bad idle from large cams comes from the low vacuum produced at idle, not much you can really do about it except play with timing and richen up the idle AF ratio to help it out. Back to top Jase Fordmods Stock as a Rock Age:24 Posts: 183 Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Location: Perth WA, Australia View User Gallery (9) Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: EDXR8 wrote: Jase wrote: hmm somethin to think anout n look at. On my 8 we were going to do soem modifications to the maf sensor so i could run a huge cam w/o a chip or anythin, but thats a lil different. I dont know s**t about engine management Altering the MAF sensor really won't do anything at all. You can run pretty big cams on the stock EEC without any mods, how big are you talking about, with a turbo you really don't need huge cams anyway. The bad idle from large cams comes from the low vacuum produced at idle, not much you can really do about it except play with timing and richen up the idle AF ratio to help it out. Cant exactly remember what cam it was, a guy we met was goin to do it . His 5L puts out about 290rwhp with a bit of head work, cam, springs etc, and cuts a 12.6 down the 1/4. He fiddled with somethin to do with the maf to alter fuel input...? Cant remeber exactly what the go was. Could ring him again if need be Afaik, the modded maf was the only thing other than head, cam, tb mods I have no idea how the electrics work, am reading into it atm. The 5l example was just somehting i thought of. Had a heap of little things written down to get around different aspects to allow for a turbo w/o fancy aftermarket gear, but computer got formatted wah Back to top EDXR8 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:29 Posts: 1440 Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:08 am    Post subject: Jase wrote: His 5L puts out about 290rwhp with a bit of head work, cam, springs etc, and cuts a 12.6 down the 1/4. He fiddled with somethin to do with the maf to alter fuel input...? Cant remeber exactly what the go was. Could ring him again if need be I have no idea how the electrics work, am reading into it atm. The 5l example was just somehting i thought of. Had a heap of little things written down to get around different aspects to allow for a turbo w/o fancy aftermarket gear, but computer got formatted wah He would need a lot more than a bit of head work, cam, springs to get 290rwhp, even the guys running top rated AFR heads, intake, big cams etc get those sort of numbers. There really isn't any way to get that sort of power without spending big time. Yes there are tricks to help tune the stock EEC but when it comes to forced induction things really start getting hard. Firstly altering the sensors to run richer will throw out load calculations and add timing, two things you do not want hapening under boost. Also the factory EEC will stay at 14.7 AF ratio for between 2 and 4 seconds of heavy acceleration, so if you floor it and boost comes on quickly and the EEC hasn't changed to open loop yet it will mean a blowen head gasket. With NA tuning there really isn't a huge deal, you will loose some drivability and won't get maximum power but you can tune it this way cheaply, buyt when it comes to forced induction too many things need to be changes to make the engine reliable and drivable. Even with the Tweecer that gives me full control over the EEC, it is still a hard job to get a good and safe tune with boost. I have had to change all the fuel, timing and load maps, injector and MAF slopes, IAC rate, open/closed loop triggers and a number of other functions to get a decent and safe tune. Back to top SVO XR6 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:24 Posts: 1680 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Scaaabz WA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject: and usally you need to go to a bigger fuel system with F/I, so the std ecu isnt set foe that... IMO, go for a aftermarket ecu. THey cost a bit, but in the long run are cheeper. YOu can get away with alot more then with a std ecu ans it is safer, like EDXR8 said with F/I, tuning is way important and if the tune is s**t, you either have wasted money on your turbo gear or you'll blow something up. my 2c Back to top EBXR8380 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:55 Posts: 2511 Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Location: Penrith NSW, Australia View User Gallery (4) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:15 am    Post subject: You can set timming at say 20* and pull spout wire and timing stays at 20* Or fit a MSD spark retard, it can be set to retard set timing as boost comes on..Wolf , Microtech would be easier..EMS, Haltech for alittle more $$... Back to top CHEF Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Posts: 1959 Joined: 06 Nov 2004 Location: Under the flight path of incoming packpackers NSW, Australia View User Gallery (22) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: I mucked around with the EEC to see what it could handle after turboing my EA... results for my set up were basically massive lean out at 3psi regardless of engine load, and serious detonation in a split second after it hit 3psi. I retarded the dizzy about 6 deg but it just added lag off the mark. I was going to try a boost regulated fuel reg ( malpassi old faithfull) but changed to a Wolf as I couldnt be a*** with the EEC anymore. If you read the "Wake up ute..." articles in Zoom a few years back, they got around 200k@w from the EEC with a chip, bigger injectors, big fuel pump... so you can retain the eec, but get a programable ecu, it'll give you far more tuning flexabillity Back to top EDXR8 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:29 Posts: 1440 Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Location: Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject: CHEF wrote: I mucked around with the EEC to see what it could handle after turboing my EA... results for my set up were basically massive lean out at 3psi regardless of engine load, and serious detonation in a split second after it hit 3psi. I retarded the dizzy about 6 deg but it just added lag off the mark. I was going to try a boost regulated fuel reg ( malpassi old faithfull) but changed to a Wolf as I couldnt be a*** with the EEC anymore. If you read the "Wake up ute..." articles in Zoom a few years back, they got around 200k@w from the EEC with a chip, bigger injectors, big fuel pump... so you can retain the eec, but get a programable ecu, it'll give you far more tuning flexabillity Yeah you will get that if you don't edit the EEC, but unfortunately the edits for the I6 EEC are still probably a while off. The lean area is caused by the EEC holding in closed loop, this is done for fuel economy but is a huge problem for forced induction. Even a rising rate reg doesn't help this because they usually don't start kicking in to above 3 or 4 psi. BTW, with an edit, the EEC IV & V are easily comparable with, and often better IMO than, most aftermarket systems. But when it comes to forced induction you need full tunability either through an edit (if compatible with your EEC) or by using aftermarket computers. Back to top SVO XR6 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:24 Posts: 1680 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Scaaabz WA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:39 pm    Post subject: couldnt have said it better myself Back to top CHEF Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Posts: 1959 Joined: 06 Nov 2004 Location: Under the flight path of incoming packpackers NSW, Australia View User Gallery (22) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: yeah, aftermarket ecu is the only way to go... its cool to just fiddle with the maps as you drive and slowly improve them Back to top Jase Fordmods Stock as a Rock Age:24 Posts: 183 Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Location: Perth WA, Australia View User Gallery (9) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject: Yeah that wass the plan, just wanted to see if there wass a way to fidle around untill i got the new comp Back to top SVO XR6 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:24 Posts: 1680 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Scaaabz WA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: the best way to push a ECCV, is off a hill Back to top xcabbi Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:27 Posts: 6699 Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Location: Wollongong NSW, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:18 pm    Post subject: You'd really be pissing off xr9ute and his tweecers off with that post svo xr6. Back to top SVO XR6 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:24 Posts: 1680 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Scaaabz WA, Australia View User Gallery (1) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:22 pm    Post subject: he loves it Back to top Macca Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:36 Posts: 3220 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Singleton NSW, Australia View User Gallery (15) Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:18 pm    Post subject: I don't think you will piss Pete off, I used to stir him up on FF.com and he still played the game. Anyway, Pete knows about more different brands of ECU than most in this forum with how they work and how to tune them, probably why he doesn't care about what EMS etc have to offer at this time. SVO XR6, what is the top RWKW you have so far? You are still NA not forced yet? 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