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danbode
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 Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: Positive Displacement Charger question |
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Hi there is there any kind of positive displacement supercharger out there that i can run 15PSI + with on an ED XR6? would it be better to get a positive displacment type or the other kind like the rapter V running that kind of boost?
cheers
Daniel |
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Jim Beam
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Turbo on a 6.
Positive displacement on an 8. |
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sly
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Positive Displacement Charger question |
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| danbode wrote: | | Hi there is there any kind of positive displacement supercharger out there that i can run 15PSI + with on an ED XR6? would it be better to get a positive displacment type or the other kind like the rapter V running that kind of boost? |
Depends what you mean by "better". Anyway the Raptor V won't boost that high, you'd need the Raptor R which is due soon, or Vortech, Paxton or Procharger.
A positive displacement blower like an Eaton M122, 2.3 litre Whipple or Kenne Belle would give you 15psi+ on an I6, as long as your internals and driveline are up to it and you have the $$$ to spend on piping & bracketry etc or are a whiz at fabricating & welding. A PD blower like these are the hardest to physically fit in an I6 engine bay (but easy to mount in a valley of a V8). A turbo or centrifugal blower are much easier to fit. Other than that there's no real reason to prefer a turbo on an I6.
You do realise that a 15psi+ positive displacement blower setup will soak up the best part of $30K to deliver reliable performance, by the time you rebuild the bottom end, O-ring & regasket the head, upgrade your tranny and driveshaft, get a 9" diff conversion and get the pipework or custom manifold done? You might do it cheaper but things will routinely break. |
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danbode
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ohk then, how bout 10PSI with a PD changer instead is that more doable? because im wanting boost fro idle. |
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sly
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't say it wasn't doable, just that it would cost you to do it. 10psi is probably the limit of doing it "cheaply". I've asked around a lot of people over the last couple of years of planning how to boost my car. Most have said 10psi is about as much as you'd want to give a stock set of pistons & rods if you want them to last any time at all. Mine is an AU, it's said to be able to take 10psi all day, every day. Your margin of safety on an ED is probably smaller, but then I've seen a mag article on a budget built EA or EB which was built as a drag car and has done many passes at up to 19psi on a stock bottom end IIRC. More on this in the last paragraph.
So you could look at smaller versions of the same PD blowers, the 1.6litre whipple or a smaller Eaton. An M112 would be a bit underdriven. An M90 would give you 10psi cheaply but no more than that. M90's sell on ebay from as low as $200 used (very) or new from $780 last time I looked. In case you didn't know, the M90 was used on the supercharged Commodore (at nowhere near its capacity) so are cheap & relatively plentiful. Don't let that put you off, it was a low-boost setup & a 10psi upgrade is a common mod for that engine.
My previous comments re piping/brackets/manifold apply just as much to the M90, you'd easily spend $2-3K if you can't fab/weld yourself.
You'll still need to upgrade the gearbox somewhere along the way, but you should get a few months out of either the T5 or stock auto as long as you don't do too many burnouts.
At 10psi you will need a good tune and good fuel to ensure reliability. Make sure you can organise a good tune before you fit the blower. Or start with a 5-6psi pulley and 98 octane, then get the tune and 10psi pulley done at the same time. |
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Jim Beam
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| danbode wrote: | | ohk then, how bout 10PSI with a PD changer instead is that more doable? because im wanting boost fro idle. |
Dont bother with a PD charger on a six.
You can have boost from around 2000rpm with a turbo and you actually a top end with it too.
Plus you can spend at least 15 grand on a PD setup and you wont get anywhere near the power of a turbo. |
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danbode
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ohk, i never intended on doin this on a stock motor or gear box. i was gonna get the box rebuilt abd it strengthened heaps, aswell as the motor will all forged high performance parts, and get extensive head work done too. so the motor will be able to handel it and it wont be a daily driver so it doent need to be the most reliable car at first but i would like to get it to a point over time where it can be driven daily if need be. |
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Jim Beam
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| danbode wrote: | | ohk, i never intended on doin this on a stock motor or gear box. i was gonna get the box rebuilt abd it strengthened heaps, aswell as the motor will all forged high performance parts, and get extensive head work done too. so the motor will be able to handel it and it wont be a daily driver so it doent need to be the most reliable car at first but i would like to get it to a point over time where it can be driven daily if need be. |
Dude your not really listening here.
You wont make anywhere near as much power with a supercharger as you will with the turbo. Seriously, there is a reason the most powerful E-series is a turbo 6. (TUFED6 460rwkw) |
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danbode
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| yer i know but im dead keen on charging it. |
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xr8ute
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim Beam wrote: | | You wont make anywhere near as much power with a supercharger as you will with the turbo. |
Oh really? |
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Steady ED
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim Beam wrote: | | danbode wrote: | | ohk, i never intended on doin this on a stock motor or gear box. i was gonna get the box rebuilt abd it strengthened heaps, aswell as the motor will all forged high performance parts, and get extensive head work done too. so the motor will be able to handel it and it wont be a daily driver so it doent need to be the most reliable car at first but i would like to get it to a point over time where it can be driven daily if need be. |
Dude your not really listening here.
You wont make anywhere near as much power with a supercharger as you will with the turbo. Seriously, there is a reason the most powerful E-series is a turbo 6. (TUFED6 460rwkw) |
TUFED6 isn't the most powerful 6 anymore dude 
John will tell you that himself!
And one of the quickest E-Series in the country, apart from Mocks EB, Johns ED and the Mikes EA is that whipple blown EL in WA
BUUUUT, I think that unless you have the skill to fabricate your own brackets, pulley and manifold that will be required to mount a PD blower on an I6, OR you have alot of money and aren't afraid to spend it paying a workshop to do it for you, you would be alot better off buying a turbo kit, off which there are a few floating around now for the 4L. |
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danbode
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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yer sorry guys
but im dead keen on the blower, and i will pay for it, but i am a fitter and turner so i can do alot of the work. |
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schnoods
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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It really does depend on your budget and what work you can do yourself.
Some things cost money, like the fuel system( hi flow pump, injectors, regs) and the head unit itself, A vortech is 2500-3000, a 2nd hand m90 eaton can be had for as little as $800 ish. Then on top is the ECU, piggy back or after market?
In some cases it works out cheaper doing the work yourself, But if its something that isnt a Bolt on or a bit of experimentation, you'll find paying for it might be cheaper in the long run when someone has experience, though it'd be great fun making one fit!
| Quote: | is that whipple blown EL in WA
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Which one would that be???
As for the turbo vs blower thing and quickest e series yada yada yada, It all has to do with the combo, He might not be building a drag car, maybe he wants something with response.
Full boost at 1500rpm would be an incredible feeling under the right foot, especially on a torquey 6. |
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Steady ED
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| schnoods wrote: | | Quote: | is that whipple blown EL in WA
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which one would that be? |
The heritage green(IIRC?) XR6, whipple, motec, slide throttlebody, water to air cooler and a 10 second pass.
Its been in magazines and s**t.
Last edited by Steady ED on Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Beam
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Steady ED wrote: | | Jim Beam wrote: | | danbode wrote: | | ohk, i never intended on doin this on a stock motor or gear box. i was gonna get the box rebuilt abd it strengthened heaps, aswell as the motor will all forged high performance parts, and get extensive head work done too. so the motor will be able to handel it and it wont be a daily driver so it doent need to be the most reliable car at first but i would like to get it to a point over time where it can be driven daily if need be. |
Dude your not really listening here.
You wont make anywhere near as much power with a supercharger as you will with the turbo. Seriously, there is a reason the most powerful E-series is a turbo 6. (TUFED6 460rwkw) |
TUFED6 isn't the most powerful 6 anymore dude
John will tell you that himself!
And one of the quickest E-Series in the country, apart from Mocks EB, Johns ED and the Mikes EA is that whipple blown EL in WA
BUUUUT, I think that unless you have the skill to fabricate your own brackets, pulley and manifold that will be required to mount a PD blower on an I6, OR you have alot of money and aren't afraid to spend it paying a workshop to do it for you, you would be alot better off buying a turbo kit, off which there are a few floating around now for the 4L. |
Goddamnit.
Its way too hard to keep up. Who is more powerful now? |
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Steady ED
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Vella was more powerful a long time ago. |
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More Grunt
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim Beam wrote: | | danbode wrote: | | ohk, i never intended on doin this on a stock motor or gear box. i was gonna get the box rebuilt abd it strengthened heaps, aswell as the motor will all forged high performance parts, and get extensive head work done too. so the motor will be able to handel it and it wont be a daily driver so it doent need to be the most reliable car at first but i would like to get it to a point over time where it can be driven daily if need be. |
Dude your not really listening here.
You wont make anywhere near as much power with a supercharger as you will with the turbo. Seriously, there is a reason the most powerful E-series is a turbo 6. (TUFED6 460rwkw) |
Peak power is just a figure. Delivery of the power available is the other half of the story. In my opinion a positive displacement SC would make for a much more enjoyable drive than a turbo. especially if its an auto. If you have a low revving torquey motor then a whipple or eaton is a great idea. Torque+Torque= mega torque. you know kinda build on stengths. Nothing wrong with turbos of course I just hate it the way everytime someone mentions supercharging the turbo brigade come in waving the flag saying what they are doing is wrong.
If he wants the supercharger maybe it is you who is not listening? |
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schnoods
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Steady ED wrote: | | schnoods wrote: | | Quote: | is that whipple blown EL in WA
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which one would that be? |
The heritage green(IIRC?) XR6, whipple, motec, slide throttlebody, water to air cooler and a 10 second pass.
Its been in magazines and s**t. |
Where the hell have i been! |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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f**k double post again.
Last edited by EL XR8 on Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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