Home |  Forums |  Search |  My Profile |  Chat  Photo Gallery |  Events Calendar |  Technical Documents  No messages |  New Posts |  Watched Topics |  Register   Blower not boosting properly - Part II Goto page 1, 2  Next          Forum Index -> Forced Induction Workshop Latest ratings Highest-ranked posts Highest-ranked topics Highest-ranked posters   twr7cx Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 10040 Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Blower not boosting properly - Part II I've changed my set up in the last week from the 2.9" pulley to the 2.7" pulley (4-6psi to 9psi). With doing that I've added and intercooler and the appropriate piping (PWR 600 x 300 x 76mm intercooler with 3" inlet and outlet, 3" 2mm wall aluminium tubing, Turbosmart silicone joiners and Tridon Hybrid clamps). Drove the car for the first time this morning and the boost is not going past around 4 psi. But I'm very positive that the boost is coming on earlier than the previous setup, but it seems to just stop increasing as it should. This to me indicates blow off valve prematurely opening. I'll play around with some of the stiffer springs I have lying around this week. However, the car is still driving nice and both the engine and blower seem happy. Somebody also mentioned that the intercooler can cause a pressure drop, but surely a, supposebly quality, intercooler like the PWR unit should have minimum pressure drop? Back to top xr8ute Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:28 Posts: 651 Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Location: Wollongong NSW, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:50 pm    Post subject: Take the intercooler out of the equation and see how that affects things. The blow off valve may be leaking. Plug and see how that affects things. Are there any signs of belt slip? Just keep changing one thing at a time, you'll find it. Back to top twr7cx Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 10040 Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: xr8ute wrote: Are there any signs of belt slip? The belts about 2,000kms old and I sprayed it with CRC Belt Grip. There's nothing that's indicated to me that it's slipping. Back to top Gaz Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 3742 Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Location: Perth WA, Australia View User Gallery (12) Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: the pressure drop would be bigger in an efficient cooler as cool the same amount of hot air to cold air there will be a drop in pressure - the better the cooling the more the pressure will drop. that said, the powerdyne shouldn't really heat air all that much, and being down in tassie i wouldn't think the cooler would be doing that much work. I would be looking at the BOV or possibly a leak in the piping Back to top Jim Beam Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:19 Posts: 3400 Joined: 01 May 2005 Location: Northern Suburbs, Adelaide SA, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:41 pm    Post subject: I'd say one of the clamps isn't hooked in right or something like that. Remember to double or even triple check. I'd say you would be able to hear if the bov is opening. Back to top twr7cx Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 10040 Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:26 am    Post subject: Ok, so uni started and the cars been running fine (just not making enough boost) so I havn't bothered with this problem. With the easter break this morning I took another look. All the clamps are definately tight like a tiger - no trouble there. The belts got CRC Belt Grip all over it and I can't see any issues with it. I have a tighter belt here, but didn't have anyone to help me fit it. So next I looked at the BOV as this was the issue last time. I fitted a stiffer spring in it. Took the car for a drive and no change, just that there was less BOV noise and the BOV was not opening as much at idle etc. Next I removed the intercooler (PWR 600 x 300 x 76mm Aero II). In it's place i just made up some straight pipe and cable tied it to the body of the car (remembering that this is just for testing purposes): Took the car for a drive and I saw 7psi, which is 3 psi more. So clearly the problem lies in the intercooler causing a 3psi pressure drop. The other missing 2psi could be due to overrated pulley or the intercooler piping being too long and too big a diamter (3"). So the question is what to do now. I'm not going to water cooling as I want something that's reliable and doesn't need constant maintence (i.e. filling up the water). I reckon that even if I reduce the size of the intercooler I will still get some pressure drop. So I've decided to get a 2.5" pulley from CAPA - I'm not sure on the psi rating on this, I'd estimate 11/12psi. I'll fit the intercooler back and hopefully that should get me 9psi into the manifold. Side effect to this is that it will be overreving the blower by redline - shouldn't be an issue as I never actually take the engine to redline and if the belt or bearings go it's an excuse to send the PD off to Raptor for a rebuild with the 60,000rpm bearings and belt combo as well as an air cooling system. If not then I'll get a 928 Motorsports 20% impellor from Raptor SC which will increase the boost another 20% and should definately be 9psi then (and a very cold 9psi aswell). And as a backup resort just incase that still isn't getting the boost level I'll reduce the size of the intercooler if need be. So well see what happens next. Now I need to go and refit the original BOV spring. Back to top glenneaux Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:21 Posts: 1235 Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Location: Hawthorn VIC, Australia View User Gallery (2) Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: water to air cooling wouldnt have to be constantly filled up, dont confuse it and water injection. water to air cooler is like the radiator in the car, its a closed system.. Back to top RAPTOR_XR8 Fordmods Parts Gopher Age:23 Posts: 91 Joined: 23 Dec 2007 Location: Liverpool NSW, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Okay mate i had this issue with my blower and you might want to look at all of your vacuum lines double check these because it will make a difference, after i found the bastard i hooked up a line and bang now im getting 8.5 psi@5500 rpm. Just check those and see how you go might be a shot in the dark but at least you will cross that off the list. Brad Back to top twr7cx Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 10040 Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:20 am    Post subject: glenneaux wrote: water to air cooling wouldnt have to be constantly filled up, dont confuse it and water injection. water to air cooler is like the radiator in the car, its a closed system.. Well aware of that, but it's also heavier than a typical air to air system and more expensive. Back to top Slick Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:39 Posts: 4821 Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject: Just remember that not all intercooler are the same. if i could find the forum where this bloke tested well known manufacturer and compared it a cheap alternative. they all had variation in pressure and the amount of CFM. the one with the highest cfm had the most drop in psi. probably more suited for big boost application. the cheaper brand fare quite well but the drawback was the quality of workmanship, cosmetic wise that is! pipe work- around 2.5' is ideal for 6 to 10psi setup. bigger pipes takes longer to fill with air and maintain the rated psi. thats my opinion anyway. Back to top MMD Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Posts: 402 Joined: 30 Nov 2004 Location: Melbourne VIC, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:58 am    Post subject: Quote: So I've decided to get a 2.5" pulley from CAPA Check what RPM this pulley will spin the blower at. it will probably over spin the blower, powerdynes don't like that, and will cook the bearings. i would get your current intercooler pressure tested, might be a leak in that somewhere who knows. Back to top twr7cx Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 10040 Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: MMD wrote: Quote: So I've decided to get a 2.5" pulley from CAPA Check what RPM this pulley will spin the blower at. it will probably over spin the blower, powerdynes don't like that, and will cook the bearings. i would get your current intercooler pressure tested, might be a leak in that somewhere who knows. Yes, as mentioned above it will, hence why I'm planning to get the Raptor SC's higher rated bearings and active air cooling. Back to top Disco Frank Fordmods Junkie Age:29 Posts: 13017 Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Location: Perth WA, Australia View User Gallery (7) Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject: twr7cx wrote: glenneaux wrote: water to air cooling wouldnt have to be constantly filled up, dont confuse it and water injection. water to air cooler is like the radiator in the car, its a closed system.. Well aware of that, but it's also heavier than a typical air to air system and more expensive. f**k mate your talking about wieght in a falcon knob jocky! and cost?? again u have just supercharged your car and u are talkign about a few $$ extra for more efficient air charge cooling... get a brain the water to air will have less pipe work as well http://www.fordmods.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=61564&highlight= there is half you water to air setup im sure u could make it fit Back to top Raptorsc Fordmods Tyre Shredder Age:40 Posts: 366 Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Location: Mackay QLD, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:21 am    Post subject: Cooler My 5c going in here Firstly with a Powerdyne blower the amount of heat to strip from the charge air is nothing like as great as some others. How about going for a 280x300x76mm with 3" tanks it will run at better than 60% efficiency and your pressure drop will be approx 1.2psi. Big coolers are not really needed for belt (internal) type centrifugal chargers and rob performance as the blower may not have enough extra psi capacity to push hard enough so there is still something coming out the other end that has a meaningful amount of PSI. Would look at belt slip in this instance as well Finally always use 3" pipework for engines 3.8 litre or more, proven a hundred times in spite of "calculations" that 2.5" is useless unless you prefer a 3psi or more pressure drop. Been there done that. As for the comment about it take a longer to fill, that is simply incorrect, it is always near full and when the thing filling it is no where near its pumping limit the extra bit of density needed to pressure it up is next to nothing. Back to top Slick Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:39 Posts: 4821 Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Cooler Tradewind wrote: My 5c going in here Firstly with a Powerdyne blower the amount of heat to strip from the charge air is nothing like as great as some others. How about going for a 280x300x76mm with 3" tanks it will run at better than 60% efficiency and your pressure drop will be approx 1.2psi. Big coolers are not really needed for belt (internal) type centrifugal chargers and rob performance as the blower may not have enough extra psi capacity to push hard enough so there is still something coming out the other end that has a meaningful amount of PSI. Would look at belt slip in this instance as well Finally always use 3" pipework for engines 3.8 litre or more, proven a hundred times in spite of "calculations" that 2.5" is useless unless you prefer a 3psi or more pressure drop. Been there done that. As for the comment about it take a longer to fill, that is simply incorrect, it is always near full and when the thing filling it is no where near its pumping limit the extra bit of density needed to pressure it up is next to nothing. Sorry, I'm firing misleading opinion to get answers! LOL there will always be pressure but wouldn't the volume/capacity of pipes & inter-cooler affect overall psi, especially with blower that has low CFM air delivery? wouldn't the psi drop mean the air is colder & dense, overall better? As our friend with the problem, how could he encounter so much trouble with a bolt on system? Well my opinion is to start of simple! The only way to trace his problem is to disconnect the inter-cooler & run the standard set up, remove the bov. run the intake tube directly to the T/B. thats the only way he'll pin point the fault I reckon. with so much changes to his setup, the problem is buried deeper & deeper. Back to top Raptorsc Fordmods Tyre Shredder Age:40 Posts: 366 Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Location: Mackay QLD, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject: The pressure drop being seen is much more a result of friction, the longer the pipe, the longer the intercooler tubing, the more bends, take all those out and he will have HEAPS of pressure Back to top EBXR8380 Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:54 Posts: 2400 Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Location: Penrith NSW, Australia View User Gallery (4) Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: The pressure drop could also be a very efficient cooler?? In being its cooling and making the air more dense.. It seems you have a pressure leak though?? Try adding some pressure and lowering into some water and check for bubbles... Sheesh I have a cheap Hybrid intercooler and it flows 750 h.p so far. It's bar and plate which is better for drag racing. The tube and fin is better for circuit racing as there's less heat sink ability but better air circulation... But this can become a big debate !! [Like turbo / blower which is better?] They both work.. Being in Tassie I daught cooling would be an issue unless your way out of compressor efficiancy... Back to top Slick Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:39 Posts: 4821 Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject: EBXR8380 wrote: The pressure drop could also be a very efficient cooler?? In being its cooling and making the air more dense.. It seems you have a pressure leak though?? Try adding some pressure and lowering into some water and check for bubbles... Sheesh I have a cheap Hybrid intercooler and it flows 750 h.p so far. It's bar and plate which is better for drag racing. The tube and fin is better for circuit racing as there's less heat sink ability but better air circulation... But this can become a big debate !! They both work.. Being in Tassie I dought cooling would be an issue unless your way out of compressor efficiancy... I think twr7cx problem is its so cold down here the air going through the cooler solidifies, narrowing the air pathway. ROFL before he installed the cooler, he was still having boost drop. faulty BOV I reckon. Back to top twr7cx Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 10040 Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Slick wrote: before he installed the cooler, he was still having boost drop. faulty BOV I reckon. That was resolved prior to upping the boost and installing the cooler - it was wrong setting on BOV. Incorrect spring and trumpet. Back to top twr7cx Fordmods - Getting Side Ways Age:22 Posts: 10040 Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Location: Hobart TAS, Australia View User Gallery (0) Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: I'm going to fit a 2.5" pulley (hopefully next week). If the boost increases then that means that the intercooler is probably not leaking, it's just causing a pressure drop. If the boost doesn't change, then it more than likely means the intercooler has an issue - which can be confirmed by removing the intercooler and running a straight pipe in it's place again. Even with an intercooler that causes less of a pressure drop I'm still only going to be getting 7psi(as that's how much I get with no intercooler installed) or less. Since I'm wanting 9psi to actually be getting into the manifold either way I have to increase the boost further to receive this. If I can get 9psi into the manifold and retain the current cooler it means that the 9psi should be nice and cold. Then when I upgrade the fuel system I can look at a more efficent cooler setup to get more boost into the engine. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First             Forum Index -> Forced Induction Workshop Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   (c)2002-2008 Matti Jones and Brad Evans [47 queries :: 0.08993 seconds ]