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twr7cx
Fordmods - Getting Side Ways
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Slick wrote: | | twr7cx wrote: | | Pauls been very happy with his lane and the blower. I regret not copying him instead of going to CAPA. |
We're going to post up a group buy notice in the near future. For 4k plus, you can't go wrong with a full kit that has everything you need. by the way, how much has the capa cost you so far to this date? |
Cost me $6,000 so far. Personally I don't think that's overly expensive. I'll blow another $1,500.00 on upgrading the PD to 16psi capable, and then I'll be happy for at least a while. I want to get the 2 peice Cebco brake kit before I make her go too much faster. |
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Slick
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| xfpaul wrote: | | yes, the .8 is what allows for all the other variables valve over lap, flow rate through manfold , past valve etc , a forced induction device (didnt say which type) is suposed to get you as close to 100 % volume efect as pos but in real world not possible |
Very true, it takes more then a few calculations to work out true e/compression. its more time comsuming & complicated then it seems.
to be more acurate & close to real world as possible on paper. you're need 2 to 4 pages of formula to work it out. theres to many factors to concider. as you said- combustion volume Cc's at TDC & BDC, type of cam & variation on valve overlaps- time it closes & opens, head & intake flow rates.
I wish it was simple as the formula I posted. LOL |
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Slick
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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effective compression of 12.9:1  if you're running 10psi on a AU motor of 9.6:1. thats based on a theoretically speaking 80% volumetric efficency. 
I think I'll purchase a water/methanol or water/methylated injector plus a big a*** intercooler. run only on Ultimate 98. then again, I'm pretty safe where I am, its nice an cold. |
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sly
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Slick wrote: | | effective compression of 12.9:1 if you're running 10psi on a AU motor of 9.6:1. thats based on a theoretically speaking 80% volumetric efficency. |
I've been told by a few workshops that the stock AU bottom end will handle that OK, provided the fuel and tune are right. Should be nice with LPG 
There's a long technical explanation floating around somewhere that shows that while forced induction increases power by big increases in average combustion pressure, the increase in peak combustion pressure (which breaks things) can be quite moderate... around 20% or so. |
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Slick
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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As I recall, the normal atmospher pressure is around 14.7psi. so at 12.9:1, the psi pressure would be around around 189.6 psi at the top of the stroke. theoretically of course.
I think the major problem would be predetonation & detonation at those extreme pressure. thats when things start to break apart. higher octane, correct air fuel ratio. colder intake air charge, and the list goes on.
as for the AU bottom end, you can't beat it for a reasonable boost & $$$.
But the most reliable method is stronger componet & blueprinting the engine to run on higher boost... period! |
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sly
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmmm... I tested compression 6 months ago & got 220-225psi in every cylinder, against a spec of 150psi minimum.
That's on an ordinary AU 6 cyl with 310,000km on it at the time.
Then again, PV=nRT, n and R are constants and temperature increases with compression, so pressure must go up by more than the inverse of the reduction in volume. |
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Slick
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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I going by a formula but what you're referring to is pumping psi. you're granking the engine over a duration to get the max gage reading.
I could be wrong also.  |
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Redford
Fordmods - Getting Side Ways
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Slick wrote: | I going by a formula but what you're referring to is pumping psi. you're granking the engine over a duration to get the max gage reading.
I could be wrong also. |
like you said, the gauge will just give you the highest reading, the longer its cranked the better overall highest average (some supercheap guages arent all that accurate either).
a point to make here is that the volumetric efficency at low cranking speed should be at its highest for that engine and will drop off as the rpm increases.
a better flowing intake manifold, a cam with more lift, duration and overlap, opening up the head ports, bigger valves and a free flowing exhaust will increase power by raising the volumetric efficiency but the NA engine will allways create some vacuum on the intake stroke. the best built naturally aspirated engine will never achieve 100 percent volumetric efficiency because atmospheric pressure can only do so much to overcome the restrictions and turbulence in the intake system. as rpm goes up, volumetric efficiency drops off.
the only way to overcome the limitation is to add a forced induction system to increase the volume or atmospheric pressure giving the air more "push" as it enters the cylinders so the efficiency goes up and the engine makes more power. it can then breathe at 100 percent volumetric efficiency or higher depending on how much pressure is used. |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| sly wrote: | | EL XR8 wrote: | | So aren't these Raptor blowers, basically just another Powerdyne? |
Is a Vortech a Powerdyne? No, it's a Vortech.Is a Paxton a Powerdyne? No, it's a Paxton.Is a Procharger a Powerdyne? No, it's a Procharger.Is a Raptor a Powerdyne? No, it's a Raptor.Perhaps you could try to phrase a question that more precisely outlines what you want to know? |
Are they basically a waste in spending money on a headunit like that, that might get you to low boost levels, but your screwed if you ever try to get more out of it?Doesn't bother me personally, i've already got my Vortech, and can do kits for probably the same price as these raptors... |
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sly
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| EL XR8 wrote: | | i've already got my Vortech, and can do kits for probably the same price as these raptors... |
Well there's a big hole in the market ATM. CAPA are no longer supplying Powerdyne kits and they don't have a V2-SQ kit for stock E-series / AU engines. Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is. Tim the Raptor man has, and he seems to have no shortage of satisfied customers in other forums eg East Coast Utes, Brisbane Commodores and Street Commodores just from my own research into the product. |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| It not a business with me. I have a smaller supply of gear, that i am selling to mates. But its for the V8's.I'm sure CAPA still sell kits for the Windsors, and the reason they probably dont sell kits for the 6's aymore, is because there are numerous turbo kits out there, that are cheaper than blower kits for the 6's that have proved to get good numbers, with room for more potential down the track without having to totally upgrade everything.For me, whether this Raptor blower is anygood or not. A turbo setup would still be my preference on any motor, but definately for a 6. The only reason they suck with 8's is the pipework or twin turbo setup adds extra $$$So do these Raptor blowers max out like the powerdynes do, or snap internal belts, etc. If you try to get some power out of them?Seems weird they started getting pushed all of a sudden on every website known to man. Almost like spam. |
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Priestly007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: |
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has there been any dyno figures or even pics of this kinda setup?
Its amazing these charger 'guys' are bagging out the turbo setups etc and saying that 'we' (the turbo guys) dont want to hear the truth yet I havent seen pics or anything like that of the charger setup itself...... |
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Slick
Fordmods - Getting Side Ways
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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^^
Snap out of it. no one here is bagging the turbos. they were only commenting on the disadvantages, time frame & extra material involved. the advantage of these s/c kits are easy of fitment, actually they were design to run on stock standard engines safely. just fit, flash & forget under 3 hours...simple!
if you want higher boost, then prepare to fork out extra dough on stronger engine components. at the end, it'll cost you more then you bargain for.
Last time I've check this area was call "Force induction workshop", not "turbo workshop".
Talk about sensitive man! LOL |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Have a read back Slick.
Nah, no one was bagging out turdbo's. Nah not at all.
Do we now start calling those blowers, called Rapturds?
Forced induction, doesn't include turbo's.... are you serious??? WTF do you think a turbo is?
On a serious note, how hard are these blowers being pushed...?
I thought you had to be a sponsor in here to push a product like this? |
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More Grunt
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| EL XR8 wrote: |
Forced induction, doesn't include turbo's.... are you serious??? WTF do you think a turbo is? |
sit down and take a breath. before you hurt yourself. You talk down slick for not reading a post, then do the same. he never said turbo's wernt forced induction. Get a grip.
All he is saying is that superchargers are forced induction too, and warrant merrit in this forum because whenever they are spoken of the guys with turbos "can" get quite upity about the use of superchargers as if no one has the right to use them because they feel turbos are just the product to have. well it might be for you but it isnt for everyone. |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Slick wrote: | | ^^Last time I've check this area was call "Force induction workshop", not "turbo workshop". |
More grunt, no breath was needed to be taken, but i think you should read before saying i can't........
You do realise i have a supercharged car... not a turbo'd car?So I'm not biased to the turbo side of things! They just work better and are cheaper on the 6's, its a fact. They're more costly on the 8's, so the blowers are usualy chosen.
I can see both sides of it, but the guys who are pushing these Raptor blowers so hard, have basically slagged off turdbo's as they call them, as being a s**t expensive setup, when they're definately not. |
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Priestly007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Slick wrote: | ^^
Snap out of it. no one here is bagging the turbos. they were only commenting on the disadvantages, time frame & extra material involved. the advantage of these s/c kits are easy of fitment, actually they were design to run on stock standard engines safely. just fit, flash & forget under 3 hours...simple!
if you want higher boost, then prepare to fork out extra dough on stronger engine components. at the end, it'll cost you more then you bargain for.
Last time I've check this area was call "Force induction workshop", not "turbo workshop".
Talk about sensitive man! LOL |
still no figures or photos.......
No one is bagging turboes? Are you kidding me?
Personally Ive got no probs with raptors blowers.... Ive got problems with people sprouting complete s**t about turbo installs....Such as some of the crap Ive read in this thread...... |
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sly
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Priestly007 wrote: | has there been any dyno figures or even pics of this kinda setup?
Its amazing these charger 'guys' are bagging out the turbo setups etc and saying that 'we' (the turbo guys) dont want to hear the truth yet I havent seen pics or anything like that of the charger setup itself...... |
Plenty of both on the product's website. I'd include the url in this post except that someone would probably then bag me out for pushing the product. |
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sly
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| EL XR8 wrote: | | You do realise i have a supercharged car... not a turbo'd car?So I'm not biased to the turbo side of things! They just work better and are cheaper on the 6's, its a fact. |
I must be an exception to the rule then. I did my sums on a turbo install for my AU 6 and came out at close to $13,000 all up. That included upgrading the LPG system to SVI, so call it $10,000 without. That includes intercooling (which I can get away without, running on LPG with a centri blower maxing out at 9-10psi) and upgrading the auto straight up, to cope with the turbo being spooled up at the TC's 2000rpm stall speed. I may need to upgrade the tranny later with a centri blower, but it'd be much later than with a turbo. Granted the turbo would give me more grunt, but for around $5,000 a centri blower that I can fit myself offers good bang for the buck, and the Mrs won't be scared of driving the car.
| EL XR8 wrote: | | I can see both sides of it, but the guys who are pushing these Raptor blowers so hard, have basically slagged off turdbo's as they call them, as being a s**t expensive setup, when they're definately not. |
I can only see one bloke pushing it and using the term "turdbo". The rest of us are trying to be balanced and respectful. If you're going to start shooting make sure you use a rifle, not a scatter gun.
As I said earlier, there's a hole in the market. Those of us who are keen on the Raptor have been waiting some 6 months since the initial announcement that a kit was being developed for EF/EL/AU and I guess we are getting a bit edgy with anticipation. Since CAPA,discontinued the Powerdyne kits 6 months ago they have been continually unable to say whether they are doing a Vortech kit for those models, or even whether they might get around to it one day.
The one bloke who was pushing the product hard has taken the negative feedback on board and toned down his enthusiasm.
The following isn't directed at you, ELXR8, but at others who have chosen to put their oars in the water. It just seems logical to put it in this post:
f**k off and let us enjoy the anticipation!!!!!! |
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