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Glenn40
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Location: Liverpool NSW, Australia
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 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Now I have had a lot of help to design these units. Chris from OUPower
and Bob Boyce and many others.
I know that my next unit needs to be made of Perspex, with slots milled into
it with 3 mm spacing. You use MEK solvent to stick it all together.
I am hoping to have bottom and sides of 15 mm Perspex - all slotted.
Just waiting for funds to advance.
Then you add high frequency pulsing units - that goes into another division
of output. 
Glenn |
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Glenn40
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Location: Liverpool NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Roundtwoit wrote: | | Glenn40 wrote: | | [ ps. another pic of my unit putting out] |
How many volts and how many amps are going through to get that.
My current system pulls 8-9 amps and gets 1.1litr a minute.
Electrolyte is 1 litre of normal tap water to 1 tablespoon of Caustic Soda
The timing on my car is stock standard I have not changed it at all.(I would not have a clue. I will have to check!!)
cheers cool pics. |
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Thanks.
Now some calculations......dont fall asleep on me..... 
My 1.4 L Unit [ 19 cells]
38 V , 6.33 A , 240.8 W , output 86 L / Hr -> 1.4 L / min -> 2.8 W/L/Hr
Note the 2.8 W/L/Hr is a measure of efficiency.
It is worked out by the total Watts eg 240.8 [ thats 38 V x 6.33 A = 240.8W]
divided by the Litres that would be produced in one Hour eg 86
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Now to get even comparisons - a lot of researchers use the output pipe
from the Unit bubbling up into an inverted bottle of water that has its neck
in a container of water. The Hydroxy bubbles up into this bottle and displaces the water.
You mark on the bottle very clearly at say 500ml volume mark using water measured accurately and poured into bottle.
You time the dissplacement of the water to the mark.
Say it was for me 41.8 secs to reach this 500ml mark on bottle.
Then calculate volume for 1 Hr at this rate. 3600 secs / 41.8 = 86 Litres .
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Thats 86 Litres per Hour .... 86 L/Hr
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
My 2.5 L Unit [ 19 cells]
37 V , 11 A , 407.7 W , output 151 L / Hr -> 2.5 L / min -> 2.7 W/L/Hr
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So you can see that this Unit is a little more efficient than the Previous one.
Roundtwoit unit.
13.8 V , 9 A 124 W , output 66 L/Hr -> 1.1 L/min -> 1.8 W/L/Hr.
This is Fantastic Efficiency.
You would need to repeat the measuring carefully a few more times with accurate guages to confirm this figure - But if it is 1.8 W/L/Hr
then that is Great.!
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For example - my unit making 2.5 L/min.
It is very efficient at 2.7 W/L/Hr but if it were running on 13.8 V
it would draw 29.4 Amps .
Yours could be duplicated as two units to make 2.2 L/min with only 18 A
draw from battery.
- far better than my first couple of units...I'm up to fifth one now.
Is the temp of the solution keeping stable?
It should be able to run for an Hour and stabilise on a temperature.
Glenn |
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garthr
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
Age:46
Posts: 153
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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G'day Glenn40,
good to see more people who are serious about doing this, thanks for the many tips & tricks. good photos too.
Have u got any mileage figures from your experiments? (before & after, type of car, etc)
i am really keen to build something that outputs in the amounts u are achieving. just need the spare time. |
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maxnett
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Posts: 35
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Location: Gold Coast QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Roundtwoit wrote: | | Glenn40 wrote: | | [ ps. another pic of my unit putting out] |
How many volts and how many amps are going through to get that.
My current system pulls 8-9 amps and gets 1.1litr a minute.
Electrolyte is 1 litre of normal tap water to 1 tablespoon of Caustic Soda
The timing on my car is stock standard I have not changed it at all.(I would not have a clue. I will have to check!!)
cheers cool pics. |
I connected my two plate cell to my car this arvo. Started at 4 amps and by the time the water heated up she was pumping out 16amps. I shut it down fearing the PVC would suffer the same re-shaping that Garth's earlier model took.
My beast is a standard EBII 4L. It ran very smoothly in the garage on HHO so I guess it is producing reasonable gas which brings me to my million dollar question.
What are you using to measure your gas production per minute?
I forgot to mention in my earlier post that the two plates were 3mm thick. It produces good gas quickly. Current flow is not a problem. I am only using baking soda in the electrolyte. I don't think anyone else has tried this method as yet. (Two thick plates)
I'll try to post some pics in the next couple of days. Thanks Garth. Your original question and early prototypes have made for one very interesting thread!!
sincere regards, |
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maxnett
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Posts: 35
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Location: Gold Coast QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Roundtwoit wrote: | | My systems.. |
Nice system. Good pics. I hope the constabulary knows what the browns Gas unit is all about or it could be rubber gloves and bend over the bonnet if they mistake it for a meth lab. |
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Glenn40
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Location: Liverpool NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Now to get even comparisons - a lot of researchers use the output pipe
from the Unit bubbling up into an inverted bottle of water that has its neck
in a container of water. The Hydroxy bubbles up into this bottle and displaces the water.
You mark on the bottle very clearly at say 500ml volume mark using water measured accurately and poured into bottle.
You time the dissplacement of the water to the mark.
Say it was for me 41.8 secs to reach this 500ml mark on bottle.
Then calculate volume for 1 Hr at this rate. 3600 secs / 41.8 = 86 Litres .
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Thats 86 Litres per Hour .... 86 L/Hr
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From post above.
It is an upturned bottle - carefully marked.
Filled with water then raised in inverted fashion so that just neck is below water level.
Gas is fed into this submerged neck - etc....
Glenn. |
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Glenn40
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Location: Liverpool NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| garthr wrote: | G'day Glenn40,
good to see more people who are serious about doing this, thanks for the many tips & tricks. good photos too.
Have u got any mileage figures from your experiments? (before & after, type of car, etc)
i am really keen to build something that outputs in the amounts u are achieving. just need the spare time. |
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I have a car that I have tested some units on...........but................
most here would consider it .....well almost half a car........Havent saved up for my Ford yet 
So its an OLd 4 cylinder - not very efficient motor. 1.9 L.
The Hydroxy units I fitted to this car were early units and did not make much gas.
Probably in the 0.6 L /min range. This is enough for a little effect.
I achieved 10 % improvement with no adjustment to mixture or timing.
The Best benefit that I got was that the car used to require Premium
Fuel or it would PING nastily.
With the Hydroxy running through - I could use ULP with no pinging.
It even felt smooth just like when on PULP.
I could feel just a little more power - but this was not substatiated
by dyno cards.
I had run car on dyno to get base curve but 57 H.P. is not all that much to brag about. 
The Misssus car has been very poorly maintained - Hydroxy Wise.!
The unit is not great and the electrolyte at 2 yrs old was almost brown.
It wasnt making much gas , so I flushed it out and put in fresh electrolyte.
It promply blew the fuse - it drew so much more current.- Now I have to
dilute the electrolyte to keep the Amps down.
Last year, I topped up the Missus Unit and gave a tune before she set off for Tumut [ snowy].
Her car is Very thirsty but last year it would have made the 400km trip on one tank
[ although she filled to be safe at Gundagie? ]
The previous year it took about 1 1/4 tank to get there.
As much as I pleaded Her to take notes of Petrol used - it was No use.
I'd have to go along to get that info...sorry...
Any way She was very pleased with the extra money saved on trip .....
she celebrated by buying some more trinkets...oh joy.
Now My missus car is the only one to have had a Hydroxy Unit Explode.
I'll have to look for the pic....
But it is not very exciting - with the bubbler - not much damage can occur.
I have always been careful - never played the fool - Hydrogen is too
explosive to play with....and I've never had any incidents in any testing
or running in my car. Even the Dismantled engine shows benefits from Hydroxy use.
Even if it doesnt save much fuel - it still helps the motor.
Glenn |
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Roundtwoit
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Posts: 23
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Location: Canberra ACT, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn40 wrote: | This is a pic of some Bubblers.
#########
This was a good unit except for my poor building design.
The glue I used to assemle it was blue Conduit cement - this works well for a couple of months then allows Hydroxy to sneak past....DOHH....
Glenn. |
have you tried to Fibreglass the units outer shell. I do not thing there would be tomuch reaction and it would mean you had an outer jacket that would sustain a heavy impact of almost anything.. The other way is to you gelcoat Paint.(Paint with Fibreglass resin.)
I am off to the Dump this afternoon and looking for something to use as a unit to hold my 14 plate 150x150mm. (No point in wasting money if it don't work!!!) |
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Glenn40
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Location: Liverpool NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Its a great idea....but the best electrolyte is Potassium Hydroxide.
Unfortunately KOH reacts VIOLENTLY with glass. so the issue would be
that any glass fibres that ever became exposed to KOH would
get hot till point of smoking.
I only know this cause someone tried fibreglass and warned us of
this disaster.
Could probably do it with Carbon Fibre - but cost would be more than
Perspex and it would be lots of moulding. Advantage would be that you could
mould the composite around the plate edges - doing the sealing for you - saving on Machining costs.
The machining costs being probably the most expensive operation
in making a Great Hydroxy unit.... hmmm , might investigate that.
Glenn |
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El Sledgo
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 15
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Location: Perth WA, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Glenn40, I don't think KOH reacts with glass. Potassium reacts with water in an endothermic reaction.
I have seen a few KOH + H2O reactions in glass jars. I think the problem that your friend had was a reaction with the polymers or fibreglass binder instead.
I could be wrong, but I recall seeing some youtube vids of guys doing the experiments in pyrex beakers. |
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garthr
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
Age:46
Posts: 153
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Effy wrote: | | how manys mls are you making from your cell garthr ? |
just did some (overdue) checking and adjusting this arvo.
2 cells connected in parallel drawing 12amps (1st is about 5amps, & 2nd is about 7amps) combined (up to about 15amps when properly hot) - output just on 1 lpm total, (60 lph) |
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Roundtwoit
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Posts: 23
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Location: Canberra ACT, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have a question from the collective brains here.
Has anyone worked out how many ml/Ltr is needed to even get a car to idle on only HHO (No other type of Fuel)
My thought is to tottaly turn my LPG off and the Petrol and feed directly into Air intake and run the car 100% on HHO
I am sure that has been asked somewhere else but has anyone actually done the math. |
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garthr
Fordmods Stock as a Rock
Age:46
Posts: 153
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane QLD, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Roundtwoit wrote: | I have a question from the collective brains here.
Has anyone worked out how many ml/Ltr is needed to even get a car to idle on only HHO (No other type of Fuel)
My thought is to tottaly turn my LPG off and the Petrol and feed directly into Air intake and run the car 100% on HHO
I am sure that has been asked somewhere else but has anyone actually done the math. |
haven't done the actual sums but here is a starting point.
i read somewhere that hydroxy to air ratio for combustion can go as lean as 4% and rich as 75%. (wide range isn't it)
so presuming u know how many litres per minute your motor needs to idle u could work from there, - mimimum of 4% of that figure.
may not be as high as some people think because don't forget that at idle the throttle butterfly is almost completely closed - so air-flow is not just a multiple of revs x displacement /2, but only a fraction of that because cyls are getting nowhere near a full charge (BTW that doesn't even happen at wide open throttle unless u have forced induction and even then still not 100% unless u somehow got a perfect setup)
so u would somehow have to test in real life what your rate of air consumption is for a given throttle position, (maybe an airspeed meter mounted in a snorkel of exact known dimensions?)
just my thoughts on the subject. |
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Roundtwoit
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Posts: 23
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Location: Canberra ACT, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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hmm something to ponder.....
I am doing a sketch of the way a plate should look I will post when I have finished it.
As I am a geek (IT Professional) I am good with graphics and have had a good deal with Outboard Motors when I worked at Noosa River Housboats for 7 or so years back in the 80's/90's
God I feel old.......(yes I had a Birthday last week so it is all downhill from here....) |
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Roundtwoit
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I am trying to find a good type of box for my 150mm x 150 mm plates.... Any sugestions ????
a water tight electrical box looks good but will not handle the temp..
I know this might sound a bit daft. But has anyone tried using an old battery with the plates still in it.
I saw one on utube and it looked like it produced heaps but what of I don't know.
Just a thought as there are so many old bats that are free and yet go to the rubbish or sinkers.... |
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Glenn40
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Location: Liverpool NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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You need to be able to make 4 L/min to be able to idle a small motor - I believe.
Then you need more like 16 L/min to drive a decent sized motor.
This can be achieved by using Very Sophisticated Electronics.
Bob Boyce states that you require three waveforms - at freq like
11 kHz , 24 khz , 41 KHz.... or some combination like that [ depends upon
your unit.
Oh and a unit say with 90 Plates or maybe more.
This is a Serious Engineering task - but is possible, I have heard of some that have done it
but They would prefer to be unnamed.
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The Battery box is interesting. I have cut one apart to try using, but they are quite flimsy
once cut apart. Perspex is far more rigid.
A lot of the You tube videos whilst look good , dont produce the Gas outputs we need. |
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Roundtwoit
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Posts: 23
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Location: Canberra ACT, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Glenn40
This is a Serious Engineering task - but is possible, I have heard of some that have done it
but They would prefer to be unnamed.
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.[/quote]
This person I presume would not like to end up like our meyers friend!!!
Bloody fuel empires are a***hole....
anything for a dollar.....
Thanks heaps I have my target.........
10 to 16 litres per minute.
Might need to install a 24Volt alt with a reducer for normal motor stuff to even try to produce those sort of numbers!!!!
6 to 12 systems in parallell.....
try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnu7ug6Yz18
Now that is a setup... Look at his other vids 3 to 4 of his will get you going...BIG TIME! |
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Roundtwoit
Fordmods Oompa Loompa
Posts: 23
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Location: Canberra ACT, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Glenn40
This is a Serious Engineering task - but is possible, I have heard of some that have done it
but They would prefer to be unnamed.
-
.[/quote]
This person I presume would not like to end up like our meyers friend!!!
Bloody fuel empires are a***hole....
anything for a dollar.....
Thanks heaps I have my target.........
10 to 16 litres per minute.
Might need to install a 24Volt alt with a reducer for normal motor stuff to even try to produce those sort of numbers!!!!
6 to 12 systems in parallell.....
try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnu7ug6Yz18
Now that is a setup... Look at his other vids 3 to 4 of his will get you going...BIG TIME! |
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Glenn40
Fordmods Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Location: Liverpool NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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That unit that you showed on You Tube is so nicely built, far better than I have done thus far.
But it would be in the order of 2.3 L /min 12.5 A at 31 V = 387.5 W
[ if it were very efficient - and by the look of this one it was Not efficient.....
that small bubbler would be almost all gas at 2.3 L /min ]
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Now here's what I'm talking about...see link
http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_My_Projects/_Over_Unity_Related_Projects/Electrolysis&PageNum=55
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Even this 170 Plate unit would need Fancy Electronics to be able to run
at high efficiency enough to completely power a car. but again it is possible.
Glenn |
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