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Raptorsc
Fordmods - Getting Side Ways
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 Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Reply for Darkr |
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| Quote: | I've been quite interested in these kits for a while now, and I might not be able to afford one for say, at least another six months I'd just like to ask some questions.
I have a BA XT
The superchargers used look very small, and comparatively (to the Vortech V2's) it looks like you run a fair amount of boost on many of the cars you do, even when the engines are standard.
Is the extra pressure making up for lack of volume? I'm not exactly sure how it works, so excuse me if it's a stupid question.
Also, if you provide your own flash tuner is it cheaper to buy the kit? |
The BA XT is a real sleeper to supercharge, have one of these running around Brisbane 
The superchargers are small, thats one of their design features, we can run any boost pressure we choose with Raptor V, its our policy to give greatest power with the most reliability, so we will sell kits at 9 - 10psi if they have proven to provide reliable motoring at that pressure. Our unit provides a lower boost charge temp which allows us more pressure head room than other comparable products.
I need to check with the supplier of the tunes as to what we can do on the Flash tuner thing. Should be able to load your tuner, will let you know. |
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Raptorsc
Fordmods - Getting Side Ways
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Darkr reply on the intercooler
Don't worry about how the supercharger outlet is, we can supply it without the bend on the outlet if needed, we only put that on there for the BA - BF kits |
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Raptorsc
Fordmods - Getting Side Ways
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| markr154 wrote: | Hey Tim,
Just referring to one of your responses...
"6. The rpm at which boost eases in (and approx psi) and the rpm at which full boost (with approx psi) is reached?
Same for all 6 cyl kits we do, will be around 3psi at 3000rpm and reach rated psi at 5900rpm. Pressure rise is same for all brands of centrifugal chargers as pressure is a function of impeller rpm - so long as the charger is pumping sufficient volume"
My car produces it's maximum of 161 rwkw at 5400 rpm with the DEV 5 cam ...and power then eases off from there. My rev limiter is set at 6250 rpm.
Here's the dyno..
I normally shift at the 5400-5500 rpm point down the quarter.
Would I be right in assuming that the Raptor V would NOT be hitting rated boost at 5400 rpm?
In that case ...should I be going for the 11-12 psi pulley to make sure I am at least forcing close to 10 psi at the 5400 rpm shift point?
Cheers. |
Mark
Once the charger goes on the power curve will be much steeper and will have no "nose over", it will end vertically. You will have full power right to the end therefore you can move your shift point much higher if you like. Generally all our customers shift immediately prior to the limiter/cutout for the best possible performance.
We should be able to add ~ 100hp to that chart and move the torque up to over 500 on the engine, its currently indicating 325 or something which is probably lower than what your engine is actually producing ......... or maybe I am wrong |
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markr154
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Tim,
I'm now starting to wonder if I would actually be better off going for the Raptor R (17 psi) blower instead.
I'm thinking more in terms of USEABLE power, and quick getaways in a REAL street situation.
Most Turbo I6's see a fair whack of boost at 1600 rpm ...and I'm wondering if I will actually feel any difference at all before 3000 rpm ...after which the motor will be revving it's tits off in the small 2800-2900 rpm range to limiter, to achieve any decent level of useable boost.
I'm thinking that the bigger Raptor R would produce more useable boost earlier in the revs, and pull with a higher increasing level of boost all the way to limiter ...am I right?
I'm also thinking that any excess pressure I could vent off with one (or 2) BOV's set at a particular psi level?
What are your thoughts Tim? |
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markr154
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I meant the Raptor V hybrid, rated to 17 psi.
Is this blower available yet, and will it have the same forced air transmission cooling?
Just that the Vortech blowers at this sort of rating need an oil feed. |
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RAPTOR_XR8
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Mate you will def notice in quick get away situations when you need it, it just goes double harder once your revs rise.
I get around 5.5 psi @ around 3000 to 4000rpm and you realy do feel the difference.
But i have a lot of restrictions on my setup and i know it would be alot more with correct piping ect.
Brad
p.s very very usable(can and still does brake transmissions) |
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Raptorsc
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Power |
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There is a perception that 3 psi at say 3000 doesn't do much.
For the Ford Intech I do not yet know the answer but early research on a Mitsubishi 1.8 litre show that the motor with boost (3psi) at 3500 made the same power as the NA motor made at 6800rpm! So where did such a big whack of power come from with not so much boost showing?? The engine no longer has to suck air in, so firstly the cylinders are now filled to 100% plus some extra where before they would barely be 80% filled. It actually makes a very tangible difference.
I never really did such a in depth analysis on the Holden V6 as we easily achieved the numbers the market wanted to see.
Will Mark see any benefit at 3000 rpm? Read on .........
In reviewing the VCT dyno chart with before and after I can see that the max power before the blower was fitted was 127rwkw at 5400 - 5800rpm.
Now after the blower was fitted that 127rwkw now occurs at 3000rpm (approx ~40kw/150Nm gain) approx, so there you can clearly see the benefit of the blower even at low rpm and boost, it brought the same power a full 2800rpm sooner than when no blower and from 3000rpm its all up and up. So, of course the power/torque is massively increased right through the rpm range.
Now Mark consider how your dyno chart can look, take your max power now and move it back to 3000rpm then add another80- 100hp for the next 2800rpm. Will you even/ever have enough traction to hold it from 3000rpm on in first gear?? |
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markr154
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmmmm ...good answer! |
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Raptorsc
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Mark
See the AU thread |
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markr154
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: |
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The reason for the question is that I was recently advised to NOT go for a Raptor V ...and go for a higher rated Vortech, or Turbo instead.
Points raised were:
1. I have the Jim Mock DEV 5 performance cam, and apparently all performance cams have overlap, so I'm likely to blow a fair amount of boost out of the exhaust ...meaning I won't see a decent slice of the 10 psi.
2. The highest amount of boost would be seen at 5500 rpms or thereabouts ...deemed as UNUSEABLE power.
3. Apparently the Vortechs can support approx 20 psi, and can be geared to provide decent boost down low ...with excess pressure bled off using a BOV.
I'm NOT trying to poo-poo anyone's opinion, and certainly NOT the Raptor V ...I'm just trying to get things squared in my own head, so I make the RIGHT decision.
I'm personally still keen on the Raptor, but as time wears on, I keep getting opinions and advice that, although well-meant ...confuses me even more! |
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Raptorsc
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: Q & A |
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markr
| Quote: | 1. I have the Jim Mock DEV 5 performance cam, and apparently all performance cams have overlap, so I'm likely to blow a fair amount of boost out of the exhaust ...meaning I won't see a decent slice of the 10 psi.
2. The highest amount of boost would be seen at 5500 rpms or thereabouts ...deemed as UNUSEABLE power.
3. Apparently the Vortechs can support approx 20 psi, and can be geared to provide decent boost down low ...with excess pressure bled off using a BOV. |
Answers:
1. If you have a lot of overlap or enough to reduce boost then that will affect any kit you fit. Of course you need a blower that can make up for the wastage, meaning you will pump more mass thereby absorbing more crank power for possibly no output gain. Possibly be a plan to correct the camshaft deficiency that ramp the superchargers up harder....... which brings more heat and less efficiency.
2.The highest amount of boost with any centrifugal system always occurrs at higher rpms, is this useless? Well it makes a 16 second Lancer into a 13 second Lancer, it makes a 16 second commodore in to a low 13 second Commodore, will probably make a 16 sec AU into a low 14 sec AU and on and on it goes. Obviously the power is usable and useful. If it was useless to have higher power at high rpm all the USA centrifugal blower manufacturers would have died out years ago.
3. Yes the Vortech can support 20psi, can you reliably drive the charger to 20psi without belt slip, I doubt it, in fact if you can do better than 12psi reliably and consistantly without belt slip on a 6 rib belt I would be suprised. If kit is supplied with a manual tensioner then the results will be even less. I also have customers who are running the chargers faster and bleeding the boost off to have flat boost curve at the end of RPM. However again its a 2 edged sword, dumping pressurised air again means wasted power and torque, the engine is merely working to pump some air out to atmosphere. The second issue as mentioned about is the heat level will be rising due to the extra work load and third you are wearing your blower out significantly faster and massively increasing the chance of belt slip.
More questions please |
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Darkr
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, this isn't a question, but just a thankyou for all the replies so far, they have all been very good answers  |
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markr154
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Don't forget ...good QUESTIONS = good answers, haha. |
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Raptorsc
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Mark
When I am done with the tuning on the stock AU engine I will overlay my chart onto yours. Then I will create an estimation of your curve but with boost. I will also attempt to get my chart printed with same layout as yours although my scaling will be higher to accomodate the total power figure |
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FordFairmont
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| markr154 wrote: |
1. I have the Jim Mock DEV 5 performance cam, and apparently all performance cams have overlap, so I'm likely to blow a fair amount of boost out of the exhaust ...meaning I won't see a decent slice of the 10 psi. |
Well if thats the conclusion youve come to, whats so hard about fitting a cam specifically designed for boost? It would be the cheapest part of the boost conversion by far so no big issue there.... |
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Raptorsc
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Cam/boost |
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Fordfairmont
Mark checked with the dev kit manufacturer and found that his cam is a high lift item rather than a big overlap job. He has it in a post here somewhere ......... somewhere
Its all good |
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markr154
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Dan, I checked with Fritzz ...who is running a DEV 5 on his weapon.
His response was "i like it, very good street cam.
i don't believe that it has much overlap at all, actually i think its a small cam with lost of lift.
it idles like a stocker, has great fuel economy, lots of vacuum. basically everything to say its not a big cam"
And I suppose you know about Stevo's EB. |
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markr154
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not 100% decided on which way I'm going yet, but either way ...us Ford owners really needed a good alternative to CAPA, and Tim is going to have his hands full when the Raptor EF/EL kits come online. |
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badcooky
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim i'm as i told you seriously considering buy an LPG FG Falcon what are the chances of us working together on the project. |
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sly
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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That would be an interesting project. Nobody to my knowledge has made any sort of serious attempt to force-feed the E-gas engine. As the FG E-gas engine is a carry-over, any work done on it would transplant to BA and BF as well.
You would need to have a close look at the LPG converter to see if it has a fitting to allow connection of a boost reference behind the diaphragm. I haven't had a good look at one as I've gone aftermarket LPG on both cars. |
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