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EL XR8
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 Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: Supercharger Questions |
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Hey guys,
I've tried to look up some of these questions is have to ask but i couldn't find anything really relevant.
1. Have any of you Supercharged V8 guys had any problems so far, eg: clutch, gearbox, motor.
2. How do you find the cars run around town and on the highway?
3. What is the fuel consumption like, really bad or is it liveable for the power gains?
4. Would you recommend or Supercharge your cars if you had your time again?
5. Also what ECU's are any of you guys running, cause thats what i would need to decide on. I'm not 100% sure but personally i really only need it to have a basic program to adjust some mixtures and run the car without too many dramas
Cause i'm about a few days off getting some cash together and going and getting one. Just curious and after some opinions before i make the final decision.
Thanks Dave |
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offyaguts
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you thinking of going a kit or sourcing different parts? |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking of sourcing the parts myself and a couple of mates were gonna help with the mechanical and plumbing side of things. But there is a kit for sale S/H that i may be able to buy if its still is for sale.
But i definately aint paying 8k for a Vortech kit from CAPA, i worked it out, and with all the parts, is would be around the 5k mark.
I'm just gonna see if i can get some cash together and if the kit for sale is still up, then i might grab it.
Dave |
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EDXR8
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharger Questions |
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| EL XR8 wrote: | | 1. Have any of you Supercharged V8 guys had any problems so far, eg: clutch, gearbox, motor. |
My mate has been running a Powerdyne on his manual XR8 for 5 years now and although the box seesm to be getting a bit tired now, it has stood up pretty well. My auto is holding up well although I don't have many kms on it, auto's just need a decent cooler. The benefit of blowers is that power down low really isn't effected that much therefore the gearboxes hold up pretty well.
| EL XR8 wrote: | | 2. How do you find the cars run around town and on the highway? |
While driving around normally they behaive like stock engines, they come to life when you get the revs up though 
| EL XR8 wrote: | | 3. What is the fuel consumption like, really bad or is it liveable for the power gains? |
Fuel consumption can be better than stock if kept off boost, but obviously when on boost they will suck a LOT of fuel
| EL XR8 wrote: | | 4. Would you recommend or Supercharge your cars if you had your time again? |
Yes I would do it again, only sooner next time. IMO its the best mod around if you can afford it.
| EL XR8 wrote: | | 5. Also what ECU's are any of you guys running, cause thats what i would need to decide on. |
I initially ran a CAPA/Vortech chip but couldn't get it to run right, more to do with the other mods I had on board I think. I now run a Tweecer edit and am having good success, unfortunately Tweecer support is limited to some EB/ED V8's although I believe EL is being worked on. Otherwise a Unichip would be a good option for a blowen stock motor IMO. |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks mate.
I thought that the car would run pretty much the same, as long as its not on boost.
I just didn't want it to be sucking the juice while i'm cruising on the freeway or just p***y footin it around town.
Thanks heaps, i'm definately gonna go see how the finances are this week!
Dave |
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AXR88U
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: Re: Supercharger Questions |
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| EDXR8 wrote: | Fuel consumption can be better than stock if kept off boost..
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I find it hard to believe as you always have to drive the power hungry belts, gears and impellor of the blower even when your driving slow. Maybe the same economy as stock is possible if you put a magnetic clutch of other device to disconnect driving the blower when cruising. |
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EDXR8
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah you do have to drive the blower but I think the increases in efficiency even at cruising rpm is enough to overcome the drag of the blower itself. Most blower companies like CAPA and Ford (with their FMS Powerdyne based kit) claim that during general cruising fuel economy is better, and from what I have seen it is accurate as long as you keep the revs below 2500-3000rpm. |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 11:56 am Post subject: |
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The things they can do these days....
Give you 100rwkw+ and still have decent fuel economy or better, when cruising!
Gotta Love it. |
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4.9 EF Futura
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Agree with all of Grant's comments above.
Economy is pretty much the same as when stock... remember that fitting a large MAF and having a pump supply more air that the engine essentially needs (i.e. air venting from BOV at < WOT) makes for good, lean cruising.
Im able to run the CAPA chip OK as engine is stock, they tell me the low-load timing is given a slight advance which would help the crusing economy.
I'll be interested to see how you go constructing your own kit... bracket and pulley system would be the big challenges IMO.
BTW the power output on a stock engine is not so devastating that transmissions and drivelines begin to crumble underneath you... but then, if you thrash any stock car on a daily basis, these things wont last...
Yeah id definately supercharge again. And I will. I'll just get to it before the engine has done 160,000km... Powerdyne has been a great way to learn all this stuff, ive never modded an engine before - so next time i'll get serious about it. |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks heaps guys, as with a lot of people, i'm pretty new to the Supercharged area. Just trying to find and figure out some things to keep my mind at ease, if i decide to go spend some money.
So Martin, i'm assuming that your car had 160,000kms on the clock when you charged it? Cause i'm on 163kms atm and most of my mechanically minded mates are more worrried about the motor breaking than anything else. Cause while i haven't got any money, i can p***y foot it around, and not snap gears, in fear of the box and clutch. Just wondering how your motor's running atm?
Thanks OffyaGuts for that thread for the UniChip. I've been told to not bother with chips like these, more directly Powerchip cause they're not adjustable or tunable?
Would anyone recommend these chips at all. Cause i could probably get one of these installed and tuned for about the $1,200 mark whereas something like a Wolf or a Microtech would be around the 2k mark.
I mean me personally, am not really worried about having a freat deal of things to tune or muck around with, just something that can be re-tuned if further mods happen and then still run fine, no matter what mods.
Any opinions from above???
Thanks again guys.
Dave |
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4.9 EF Futura
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| EL XR8 wrote: |
So Martin, i'm assuming that your car had 160,000kms on the clock when you charged it? Cause i'm on 163kms atm and most of my mechanically minded mates are more worrried about the motor breaking than anything else. Cause while i haven't got any money, i can p***y foot it around, and not snap gears, in fear of the box and clutch. Just wondering how your motor's running atm?
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Dave, my motor is running sweet as the day i bought her - yeah, the blower went on at 165,000. There have been no bad side effects from fitting the blower (excessive tyre wear  ), although this only the powerdyne kit, CAPA refers to as stage 1 - so its fairly tame.
It really depends on what you have planned. If you're gonna run 10psi of vortech-fed air into a stock engine, then expect trouble. However, these engines can take a beating and its only things like heads/manifolds/injectors etc. which limit them.... until you approach the 500hp mark and then its the block you need to worry about. If your motor is still strong then you shouldnt have too many dramas running a conservative blower setup... just dont go chasing power like EDXR8's, lol.
I only wish i'd done it sooner as now the "usual" things have started to go wrong - pulley tensioners, water pump, etc. etc.
Out of the above, i'd go for the unichip and find someone who knows how to tune one on a supercharged engine. I just use the CAPA chip - they designed the kit for a stock engine so the tune is ok. Powerchip is simply not an option for a supoercharged engine. If you plan on upgrading injectors (pretty much required for anything more than a powerdyne... and even that's pushing them) you will need to consider this in your tuning requirements. |
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EDXR8
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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As Martin said, the supplied CAPA chips are fine on the standard engine. I am not sure if CAPA are actually still doing them, I was told they have gone to unichips now. Unichip would be my pick if you were going to stay relatively sane, it will cope with probably 10-12psi boost and other mods quite well and is obviously custom tuned and re-tunable. If you are wanting to push the engine to its limits and go for large injectors, high boost and lots of mods then I would be looking at an aftermarket system although you may have the option of the Tweecer if EL support comes in.
If you can afford a rebuild and balancing it would be a good option but its probably not necessary if you are going with the Powerdyne or a low boost Vortech. |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again guys.
I would probably be trying to look at a around the 240rwkw mark as a minimum, but if that is about as much as the motor can take in stock form, then thats all i will run it at, later on if i rebuild the motor which i most likely would, i would like to have the potential of the blower to run at higher kw figures.
Basically, trying to get as much power albeit safely as possible out of the stock motor for about a year or unitl i somehow come into money????!!!
To be able to rebuild it to handle more.
What would be the go with larger injectors, can the UniChips not handle having them or can't be tuned to them???
Also any ideas, (roughly) on what a safe power figure that may be achievable on stock 163km motor. I'm getting 126rwkw's with exhaust and extractors but i needs to be tuned and chipped to be running better. |
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EDXR8
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Well I have seen stock engines with the Vortech kit running 10-12psi pull 240rwkw, but that is getting a bit much for an older engine IMO. If it was me I would probably run the Vortech at around 8psi which should give around 200+rwkw and save the wear on the engine, although 12psi isn't out of the question really.
As for the Unichip and big injectors, I am not totally sure how they will go. I know unichip has limits to how much they can change the fuel programming but I am not sure if say 42lb will be ok. Another thing with unichip is that I don't believe they have the ability to alter startup and idle programing. With my 42lb injectors I needed to reduce the cranking fuel delivery by about 40% to stop it flooding, I am not sure if the unichip can do that. Probably worth talking wiht the guys from APS or any decent unichip retailer as they will be able to advise better. |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers ED XR8
If you believe, that the motor would only be safe to run at about 8psi or 200rwkw or thereabouts, i might even have to start looking at a n/a motor even, cause is 8k on a blower gonna be worth it if i can only safely run at 200rwkw.
I would still love to go the charged route and probably will.
Ok a couple more Q's....
Running around 200rwkw, am i definately going to need, bigger injectors, fuel pump, MAF, TB or intake at all?
Basically could i get away without replacing any of these?
Even if i rebuilt the motor, had the Vortech, what would be the maximum power i could hope to achieve, a rough guide as to what the motor would/could handle?
Also another theoretical Q: Running 200-240rwkw, what 1/4mile time would you think i would be looking at, as a guess, i know its hard to say, but i was thinking along the lines of mid to low 13's, does that sound about right or am i a little optimistic? |
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EDXR8
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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I said 200rwkw and 8psi because that is damn safe, if you were going to rebuild within a year anyway crank it up to 10-12psi and around 240rwkw. It will wear out the motor quicker but if you are planning on rebuilding anyway who cares, my bet is it will last for more than a few years anyway even if treated fairly badly. Also remember that even with 200rwkw, the torque the blower gives is awesome.
200rwkw will still need an upgrade from the stock 19lb injectors unless you want to run an FMU which increases fuel pressure with boost. Not the best option but it works. With an FMU and 19lb injectors you will be limited to 8psi anyway. Its a bit of an overkill for most engines but 42lb injectors are nice and cheap in the US at the moment so thats what I would suggest, they will support more power than the block can cope with. Fuel pump will max out at around 200rwkw (mine went to 160 only but it was a bit old). MAF you will need to replace, the CAPA kits come with a 73mm Vortech MAF anyway. TB can stay as is but you will see an improvement with a 65 or 70mm unit.
As for maximum power, I will tell you on the weekend. My engine has been fully rebuilt with heads, cam, intake etc etc and the Vortech running 12psi (at the moment), I am tuning it tomorrow and will be at the SA dyno comp on the weekend. I know the tune won't be great as I only have a day to work on it and half of that will be fitting my new front spoiler but at least it will give an idea of what power these things cam make on a fairly modified engine.
I know a Vortech powered AU ran a 12.8sec 1/4 mile and that had a mild cam and 3.9 diff gears, but the rest was stock I believe. Don't really know about E-series V8's, maybe mid 13's as a guess. I will run mine down the 1/4 in the next few weeks if the tune comes along ok. |
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4.9 EF Futura
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| EL XR8 wrote: | Cheers ED XR8
If you believe, that the motor would only be safe to run at about 8psi or 200rwkw or thereabouts, i might even have to start looking at a n/a motor even, cause is 8k on a blower gonna be worth it if i can only safely run at 200rwkw.
I would still love to go the charged route and probably will.
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I guess its kinda chalk and cheese... 200rwkw is fairly radical for a nat aspirated windsor. I think XR8chic is well above this figure and that engine has had a s**t of work - and from what i've heard it flies and would probably destroy a lot of blown cars. I'd hazard a guess and say the expenditure on that combo would be comparable with a basic blower setup. Heads and manifolds alone, we are talking reasonable $$$...
I mean heck, mine's only about 170kw at the wheels but the power comes on real soon in the piece... a centrifugal blower makes more power the higher you rev, but despite what you may hear, there is LOADS of extra low down power... something which is usually sacrificed in an n/a build due to the manifolds you need to make the power in the upper rpms.
BTW 200 to 240rwkw (from blower) i think would be good for mid-high 13s, change diff and you'd be getting closer to 13 IMO |
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EL XR8
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Let us know how you end up going ED XR8, on the weekend.
Is there anyway to be able to change the boost you can run, i.e. boost controller or would this only work on a turbo car? Or would you have to change the pulleys to adjust boost.
Basically just so as to whether i would be able to run a high and low boost setting, but i wasn't sure if it was possible.
Also, if buying a second hand or reco Vortech, is there anything in particular to look for or is it pretty much pot luck with how its been treated?
Martin, have you run yours down the quarter or against any other cars?
How did you go with either? |
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EDXR8
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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To change the boost you need to change the pulley and they are $200 each, they come in roughly 6psi, 10psi, 12psi .....
Buying a 2nd hand unit is pot luck but when I was at CAPA they showed me their 2nd hand ones and said they sell the ones thathave plenty of life still in them and recondition the others. Apparently the Vortechs have around 3-400,000km lifespan so I think you are pretty safe even with a 2nd hand one if you are on a budget.
Finally today I have put a few kms on my car, still have to iron out a few problems but so far it seems great. Starts coming on boost at 2500rpm and I am seeing around 5psi around 3500rpm, but the engine revs so quickly you are at that at no time anyway. |
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