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Band adjustment? 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:20 am 
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I'm assuming when you changed over you checked fluid levels? I had a similar problem when fluid was low (and I don't mean running dry low).

How are your other gear shifts (3rd?) Also does the car act as if its slipping (ie might roll forward slightly) or just completely not selecting gear when this happens? If its slipping my money is on low fluid or the converter and if it just isn't selecting gear I would suspect the solenoid.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:50 am 
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basically when you put it from "P/N/R" to "D", the revs flare up and it takes a few seconds to engage in drive. any throttle before then just free-revs.

but i found last night, that even when it seems to engage in drive, you cant put your floor it straight away or it will 'half' slip, THEN thump into 1st. Only once youve driven for like 30secs from the intial change into "D"(even when already warm), the car will behave normally, and you can stop as many times as you want and floor it, and it will drive perfect.

So it appears it takes like a full minute for it to engage in drive properly then will drive perfect. I suspect the fluid is burnt out in the converter, but i have changed the fluid in the box. Would burnt fluid in the converter cause issues?

im reluctant to spend any money on this as i think it might be easier just to over haul the bands, friciton plates etc. without being charged countless $$$ by an auto mechanic to find the cause, but would be kicking myself if it was something simpler.....
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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:22 am 
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FordFairmont wrote:
some great advice their mate !!

also while im here, ive just converted to auto with a 2800rpm stall, and from what i seen the last owner gave the box a good thrashing.

ive noticed when i reverse out my driveway and push the selecter into "D", the revs flare up, and you have to wait a couple seconds before it engages the gear. Sometimes its a 2 second wait, other times its 10 seconds. It just free revs if you try to move too early, and when it engages it kind of clunks into first. Gets very annoying when your sitting on the middle of the road, waiting for the gearbox to engage drive, but its only once you move it out of park or reverse that this happens

other than that, the gearbox shifts fine, doesnt slip or clunk while driving. Also, trying to take off on a hill, it seems to produce the same free revving though...... whats the verdict boss?


A new S5 will not fix your problem
It looks like you have a problem with the C2 clutch(forward drive) If o'l mate that owned the box before you liked to "stall it up" in "D" it - (A)cracks the C2 piston (B)Hardens & breaks the piston seals(C)burns out the C2 clutch - The delay that you have is the time it takes to apply that clutch.You could repair just that clutch, but i would say once you opened the box up ,You would some other "Nasties" considering the hiding it has had.Next time you drive it,Manually select "1" & take off from there - This brings on the rear band & relieves the weight off the C2.

When you put new oil in the pan,as soon as you start it, it gets sucked up in the filter,through the pump & into the convertor,back out of the convertor,into the front cooler line to the radiator,back into the rear cooler line & back into the box - so all the dirty oil,metal etc from the convertor & cooler is back into the box - I'd say that filter will be chokka!

If you don't have access to a "flush machine" the next best way to get all the burnt oil out of a trans is - undo the rear cooler pipe,put a rubber hose on the end of the pipe into a bucket & start the engine.Once the oil starts to "spit",turn it off & refill the pan & start it again, when the oil starts coming through red,switch it off,put the cooler line back on & refill it. From bone dry a BTR will hold about 17 pints,but allow about 25 if you are going to flush it.

If you get another box for it & want to re-use that hi-stall,It has to be flushed along with the cooler or all the rubbish thats in them will go staight back into your new box.
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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:27 am 
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ok thanks, you seem to have a wealth of info. You wouldnt mind rebuilding me a good BTR would you? :lol:

i seen on ebay theres rebuild kits for the BTR for $250, but i guess that this wont have half the parts i need? and not sure how much labour a mechanic would charge

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FALCON-BTR-4-SPE ... dZViewItem

Ive bought a brand new 2800rpm stall in preparation for the new/rebuilt box so just wondering which way to go.... should i get this one rebuilt, or start with a fresh rebuilt box.

btw, yes this "person" did like to stall it up, she was actually was doing it to my car while it was still on the stands to show me how great the stall was :roll:

PS: also forgot to mention the box spat out 4L of oil 200km after the auto conversion, and car had to be towed home as it wouldnt drive. I assume some sort of damage has been done there.....
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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:53 pm 
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xpvanman wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
xpvanman wrote:
One place I used to work at would charge $500 to supply & fit the 4L60E solenoid with a transmission service as part of the deal.If you are handy with tools,all you need is a T-30 Torx socket to lower the rear of the valvebody to get the solenoid out.

The only real way of finding out the condition of your transmission is when you service it,cut open the old filter & have a look inside the Dacron lining - If you have a clutch or band on it's way out,that material will be in the Dacron filter.If you have small pieces of brass lying in bottom of the pan,that is the heat exchanger in the radiator coming apart.

The car only cost $800, yet its real good. Maybe a trans cooler will be enough for me to be able to tow. If not i'll see. If it does slur then shunt into the next gear is that bad for the trans? Seems if i am up to it i could do both correctives you suggest myself and save heaps.

Unfortunately when i serviced the trans recently there was sandy dirt on the side of the pan and i knocked it into the pan when i removed it. Of course this stuff then got coated in oil, and it was hard to tell what was what. There was the normal amount of fur on the magnet, i couldn't see anything unusual. I have seen aluminium particles in another trans but there were none in this one. I still have the old filter so could look at that.


Try the front servo first - If the car has done over 150K,those o-rings will be stuffed.Go to your local trans shop & ask for a BTR front servo kit. When you put it back together,use vasoline to coat the o-rings & to hold the servo release spring back into the servo - Vaso is compatible with auto oil, Rubber grease etc is not & can block the filter.You will be surprised what a new set of front servo seals will do!

Have you got an old box lying around? Swap the S5's -You have nothing to lose, If you can do it yourself,it is only your time. Or you might be able to get one from the wreckers from one of their scrap exchange boxes - AU's are getting to the age that they are worth nothing & most people starting to fit secondhand boxes instead of paying $2400 for a reco.

If you fit a cooler,always bypass the radiator.If the heat exchanger collapses or the tank gets a hole in it & fills with water - One stuffed trans! BA's are bad for filling the auto up with water.

Aluminium particles in the pan usually come from a white metal bush that is wearing (Extension housing,case bush etc)

Now you are really talking. I have two spare falcon btr's! But they both have probs. One was 'blipping the throttle' when going from 3rd to 4th (slipping?), getting hot, and had alum in the oil. The other was fine for the few hundred kays i drove it except when i overtook a truck using full throttle, for the next say two kays it shuddered under light throttle, then went back to normal. From which might i salvage an S5?

I'm 250kms from the nearest trans shop . . . but should be able to source a front servo kit somehow, any help appreciated.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:22 pm 
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FordFairmont wrote:
ok thanks, you seem to have a wealth of info. You wouldnt mind rebuilding me a good BTR would you? :lol:

i seen on ebay theres rebuild kits for the BTR for $250, but i guess that this wont have half the parts i need? and not sure how much labour a mechanic would charge

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FALCON-BTR-4-SPE ... dZViewItem

Ive bought a brand new 2800rpm stall in preparation for the new/rebuilt box so just wondering which way to go.... should i get this one rebuilt, or start with a fresh rebuilt box.

btw, yes this "person" did like to stall it up, she was actually was doing it to my car while it was still on the stands to show me how great the stall was :roll:

PS: also forgot to mention the box spat out 4L of oil 200km after the auto conversion, and car had to be towed home as it wouldnt drive. I assume some sort of damage has been done there.....


If it was me, I would start with another trans - write that one off to experience! You could probably get a good "runner" trans for the right price - There is a low KM AU trans on Ebay now for $150. That way you still get to drive the car & when the other box is finished,The car will be off the road for a couple of hours instead of a few days.

That kit doesn't look too bad - make sure that you get the right gasket,seal & ring kit for the model of your trans - The valve body gaskets are different between the models.Some kits supply both sets.There is a few extra bits that you will need - That kit doesn't supply steels(the clutch goes, friction - steel -friction etc) If you rebuild your original trans,you will need new steels in the C2 - & the steels are selective thickness for the correct clutch clearance. There is a few pistons & wave springs that should be replaced - that kit doesn't supply them. He lists a vacuum modulator - BTR's don't have them.S5's do that job.

Automatic transmission is a specialised field - expect to pay $80 - $95/hr (about 10 - 12hrs "bench time") Be wary of service station or wreckers rebuilds. Most auto shops are members of ATRA (Australian transmission rebuilders association) If you go on holidays & there is a problem with your trans,The local ATRA member will repair it (towing,accomodation etc) - Australia wide warranty.Imagine trying to get that kind of service from a wreckers rebuild?
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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:29 pm 
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again, excellent advice !!!

i just bought a new high stall to suit EF-AU 93LE, so hopefully i havnt limited what future box i plan to fit. Its a shame though, cause this box shifts fine once it gets going, but at the same time i dont wanna spend another single cent on it !!!!
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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Relaxed_diplomacy.

I'd try the solenoid out of the 2nd trans - as long as the pan was clean.At least it wouldn't have had a gut full of metal through it like the first one.
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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:32 pm 
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When replacing the servo seals, will fluid leak out? If so would putting the car on a tilt help? Since i've just dropped the pan i'd rather avoid doing it again if possible for this repair. As you suggest i plan to do this first and see how it goes.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:29 pm 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
When replacing the servo seals, will fluid leak out? If so would putting the car on a tilt help? Since i've just dropped the pan i'd rather avoid doing it again if possible for this repair. As you suggest i plan to do this first and see how it goes.


Yes, Try the servo seals first & see how it goes.

Yes, You will lose a small amount of oil - jack the side of the car up & it will minimise the amount that will be wasted.
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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:43 pm 
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xpvanman wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
When replacing the servo seals, will fluid leak out? If so would putting the car on a tilt help? Since i've just dropped the pan i'd rather avoid doing it again if possible for this repair. As you suggest i plan to do this first and see how it goes.


Yes, Try the servo seals first & see how it goes.

Yes, You will lose a small amount of oil - jack the side of the car up & it will minimise the amount that will be wasted.

Excellent.

Ford have sourced three o-rings for me, two are the same size.

My Max Ellery repair manual is for the EA/EB/ED gearbox and says you "force out the servo piston by screwing in the band adjuster", since you say mine doesn't have adjustable bands, will i be able to easily remove the servo piston some other way? If i can do this the job seems easy, since i won't have to adjust the band afterwards.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Yes, The servo comes out easy.

Give the outer cover a "Tap" with a small hammer, Push the cover in & dig out the circlip.Usually the cover comes straight out but sometimes it needs a slight lever out with the smallest flat blade screwdriver between the case & the cover.

Pull the servo out,replace the o-rings & Vaso the servo release spring back in to the servo + on the seals.
Re-fit the servo,Then the outer cover,push it in & then install the circlip (Make sure the gap in the circlip is at the bottom or at the side - Makes it a lot easier to get it out next time) Give the cover a few taps to make sure the circlip is properly seated in it's groove, Then top up the oil.
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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:51 pm 
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Ford charged me $44! for the three o-rings.

Two are about 4" diameter, one is about 2" diameter.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:40 am 
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man this is the thread Ive been waiting for.

Xpvanman, thanks for everything you have posted here. the ol' 4 speed is a deep mystery to all of us here (well perhaps 99% of us).

I have an 01 AU 4 speed, and I got her at 160,000 clicks. Decided to give it a minor service at 170k, filter, oil etc (but not a complete drain, aparently some stays in the converter?). I had a freind who works as a profesional mech do the job, and he said in the many btr's he has had to do oil and filter on, mine was by far the most burnt. as close as he could tell the origional fluid, and filter- never changed in 170k... also it had 2 magnets in the pan, and both had been overwhelmed by metal shavings. there was shavings in the ribbing of the pan too. after the fresh fluid went in it was so much better. it stayed like this for a while, but its now back to square one for what feels like slippage and its holding out on shifts (low fluid lvl?) (now 200k). Ill relate to an incident i had shortly after buying it... stoped at lights awaiting U turn. begin u turn, almost no throttle, as i straighten up, apply take off throttle pressure, no hook up, rev to redline, then a bang that would do a 50 cal sinper proud, before slipping into gear and never doing it again. is there anything that could have gone pop? band? clutch pack?

Ive recently found that the rear seal and bush? is worn and leaking fluid. sounds like a real horror story, but thats the great thing about the btr's, they can be 9/10s absolutely f**k, and they still get you around. hard to kill.

does it sound like its rebuildable? or would the money be better spend on a t5 conversion? (both big pains in the a***)

 

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 Post subject: Re: Band adjustment?
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:02 pm 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
Ford charged me $44! for the three o-rings.

Two are about 4" diameter, one is about 2" diameter.


Yes, They are the ones - $44! Geez, Ford sure know how to sting!

It's a shame you lived so far away from an auto trans shop - You would have got 3 sets for that price!
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