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Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor 

 

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 Post subject: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:22 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Hey guys well I bled the brakes on my EF II gha only to find that when I was finished the brakes were actually worse, this is the third time I've bled them with no luck in fixing the problem.

Basically the pedal sits around the height it used to except when I press it in I don't feel the brakes until it's almost/basically touching the floor, so the pedal can be pressed in far more than it used to which isn't right at all.

Anyone know what could be causing this??? There's no air in the system as I've bled it correctly 3 times (Rear passsenger, rear drivers, front passenger, front driver).

Any idea on what's happened???

Cheers.
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 Post subject: Re: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:21 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Dumb question I know, but starting with the obvious. Have you checked the lines for any leaks? Especially at any joints in the system. Other possibilities are (quoting from the Workshop Manual) insufficient fluid in the system and faulty master cylinder.
A good tip if its the cylinder that's stuffed. If you are mechanically confidant enough, most brake specialists carry rebuild kits for master cylinders. It will save you a few hundred $$ on the price of a new one and is fairly straight forward to put together.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Sounds like master cylinder. The area of cylinder in the normal range of pedal travel stays mostly clean and shiny. But the area outside normal pedal travel (ie, pedal closer to the floor) often gets a buildup of corrosion and gunk. If you press the pedal to the floor while bleeding the brakes, the piston is forced through this rough area of cylinder, and can stuff the piston so it no longer seals properly even in the area of normal pedal travel. I did this, with the same result, though not as much pedal travel as yours.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:42 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Yeah I pushed it to the floor a few times as I didn't realise that wasn't an issue until now.


I tried bleeding it again just before, there's no air in the lines and no leaks from what I can see, basically the pedal has no pressure at all until it hits the very floor even then I'm not sure if the brakes are even working I just feel pressure doesn't feel like "braking" if you get me.

How much are those master rebuild kits?? Think it's the master?
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 Post subject: Re: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:45 pm 
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ILLaViTaR wrote:
Yeah I pushed it to the floor a few times as I didn't realise that wasn't an issue until now.


I tried bleeding it again just before, there's no air in the lines and no leaks from what I can see, basically the pedal has no pressure at all until it hits the very floor even then I'm not sure if the brakes are even working I just feel pressure doesn't feel like "braking" if you get me.

How much are those master rebuild kits?? Think it's the master?


When you bled the brakes, did you push the pedal all the way to the floor? Try and bleed the brakes without pushing the pedal all the way to the floor. Get a block of wood or something to stop the pedal short and see how that goes.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:55 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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ILLaViTaR wrote:
How much are those master rebuild kits?? Think it's the master?
From memory when I did the one in my old KC Laser it was $118 (or thereabouts) v $400+ for a new cylinder. Still a fair wad of cash for some seals and a couple of springs. I'm not sure of the cost for a Falcon, but I guarantee it'd be a hell of a lot less than a new cylinder.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:58 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Hey thanks guys, well after having the flu all week I tried bleeding them again without pushing the pedal too far down and it made no difference, so do I just take the master off and check the seals? I wanna make sure it's stuffed before I replace it, seems pretty straight forward but if I take it off I'm aware I need to bleed the brakes again, but do I have to bleed them a different way than the typical caliper bleeder method Ive been using? I've heard I'll need to bleed the master itself or something, dies that sound right? Cheers
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 Post subject: Re: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:14 am 
Getting Side Ways
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The only way to check the seals on the master is to disassemble it, and in doing that you'll very likely damage the seals anyway if they are old. But to check the condition of the cylinder itself, all you are looking for is scoring or deep pitting (highly unlikely) in the barrel of the cylinder and on the piston itself. If you haven't already, get yourself a workshop manual (there's a link one on here somewhere, just use search) and it shows how to do the job. I've never heard of the master needing to be bleed as a routine, only if it's been removed. And even then it's simply a matter of keeping the reservoir full and cap off as you pump the brake pedal. Basically does itself while the brakes are bleed.

 

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dc_todd wrote:
Cheap pads squeal like cheap hookers, and you can take that to the bank.


Au Fairmont Ghia
My (Old) 95 EF Wagon

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 Post subject: Re: Bleeding brakes, pedal doesn't engage until reaches floor
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:40 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Hmmm it can only be the cylinder from the looks of things, I have a spare one off a V8 but I've read they have different split points or something.

Anyone knows what this means, if it matters??
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